VGN 800

NW Mailing List nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Mon Mar 14 13:29:58 EDT 2011


See pages 92 to 95 of H. Reid's book.

Dick Dunford
Blacksburg

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Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25



> Ken and Gordon:

> I for one would be very Interested in reading more about the VGN 800 in

> the Arrow.Hope you will consider it .

> Gordon : As Gene mentioned It would be great to hear (Read) more about

> your younger years on the N&W .Thanks, Ken Tanner

>

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> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 6:29 PM

> Subject: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25

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>> Today's Topics:

>>

>> 1. Re: VGN 800 (NW Mailing List)

>> 2. Re: VGN 800 (NW Mailing List)

>> 3. Injectors (NW Mailing List)

>>

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>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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>> Message: 1

>> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:35:12 -0500

>> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

>> Subject: Re: VGN 800

>> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

>> Message-ID: <CF4A2684D9E04C2B9C22F95865B52B75 at Jimmy>

>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>>

>> "An injector puts cold water (ignoring the steam used to operate it) into

>> the boiler, so an engineer could use his injector in such a way as to

>> make life tough for the fireman by killing steam pressure with cold water

>> while keeping the throttle way open."

>>

>> Gordon,

>> Short on time here, but, that is not exactly how it works or should be

>> told. In other words there is a lot of myth in your statement.

>>

>> Jimmy Lisle

>>

>> I should have added that that my reply may cause a number of questions

>> and in an effort not to veer the VGN 800 thread off course, maybe a new

>> "Injector" thread should be started.

>>

>> JL

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>> Message: 2

>> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:49:17 -0500

>> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

>> Subject: Re: VGN 800

>> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

>> Message-ID: <A1989C826263484C85A1FD16F64CE108 at Gene>

>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>>

>> Gordon;

>> Thank you for this info. I for one would like very much to hear the

>> stories and experiences of your younger years on the N&W.

>> Gene A.

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: NW Mailing List

>> To: NW Mailing List

>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:24 PM

>> Subject: Re: VGN 800

>>

>>

>> Gene,

>>

>> With a little trepidation I'll throw out some comments for Ken and other

>> to use for target practice.

>>

>> VGN 800 was built in 1918 when feedwater (heater) pumps were not common,

>> and the Virginian Ry., diagram for this class of locomotive does not show

>> such a pump although Virginian diagrams for later locomotives do show

>> such pumps. Usually locomotives of this era had two boiler water

>> injectors, one for the fireman and one for the engineer, although I

>> believe later engines with feedwater heater pumps may have had only one

>> injector.

>>

>> Based on my younger days tending fire and water on steam locomotive

>> (N&W, not Virginian) I would say that the fire could be readily dumped

>> into the ash pan by shaking the grates.

>>

>> Gordon Hamilton

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: NW Mailing List

>> To: NW Mailing List

>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 3:24 PM

>> Subject: Re: VGN 800

>>

>>

>> Ken;

>>

>> I for one would be very in interested in reading your article on the

>> 800 in the Arrow.

>> Being an ex-Navy Boilerman, should the feed water pumps( main and aux

>> fail, which was not likely to happen), and the boiler water level began

>> to drop. The procedure would be to drop the fires, easy enough on an oil

>> fired boiler, and secure all steam valves. What would be the procedure

>> for the coal fired steam locomotives. Were the injectors the only water

>> supply? How easy would it have been to drop the fires from the cab?

>>

>> Thanks;

>> Gene A.

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: NW Mailing List

>> To: NW Mailing List

>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:53 PM

>> Subject: Re: VGN 800

>>

>>

>> Thanks to Harry for his detailed report. I thought I might add a few

>> things.

>>

>>

>> Coming up on April 1, will be the 70th anniversary of the 800

>> blowing up at Stewartsville, Virginia about 5:20 AM.

>>

>>

>> This tragedy killed all three crew members, Engineer John Dudding,

>> 46, Fireman Mead Brown, 25 and head brakeman Hollie Harrision, 26, less

>> than a week short of his 27th birthday. It would be hoped that all three

>> died instantly, as they were thrown great distances and dismembered by

>> the violence of the explosion.

>>

>>

>> While the Federal Investigators pinned the cause on a worn and

>> pitted injector nozzle, causing the injector to fail. They also pulled a

>> large quantity of cinders, coal and mud dredged out of the tender tank,

>> which could easily have caused the valve to the injector to have stopped

>> up. The injector had been reported as problematic in a number of

>> inspection reports both at Victoria and at Roanoke in the months prior to

>> the explosion, but apparently tested fine at Roanoke early in the morning

>> of April 1, 1941.

>>

>>

>> Of course, we'll never know exactly why the crew allowed the water

>> to get so low in the boiler. It could have been inexperience, as Harry

>> pointed out, Brown had only hired out on the Virginian about 6 months

>> previously, the crew could have been tired or not paying attention.

>> Another accident with less dramatic consequences a few years ago on the

>> Gettysburg Railroad, found that the water glass could have had some

>> debris in it giving a false indication of water in the gauge when there

>> was none. One of the photos shows the water column and glass, relatively

>> intact I am certain the investigators checked it, but the violence of the

>> explosion could have dislodged any debris in the line.

>>

>>

>> I've written a rather lengthy story on the 800's fateful trip, if

>> there is any interest, I'll submit it for the Arrow.

>>

>>

>> Ken Miller

>>

>>

>> On Mar 6, 2011, at 8:17 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:

>>

>>

>> I've not stayed abreast of everything. What led to its explosion?

>>

>>

>>

>> Kim

>> Huntsville

>>

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>> Message: 3

>> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:07:00 -0500

>> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

>> Subject: Injectors

>> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

>> Message-ID: <0C843A33A2DC47AF91B4D97DB2A60A00 at Jimmy>

>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>>

>> "An injector puts cold water (ignoring the steam used to operate it) into

>> the boiler, so an engineer could use his injector in such a way as to

>> make life tough for the fireman by killing steam pressure with cold water

>> while keeping the throttle way open."

>>

>> Gordon,

>> I guess we have all heard this same story and it has been ingrained in

>> our brain as "that's the way it is". Here is another one you may have

>> heard: "as the safety pop valves were going off, the engineer turned on

>> the injector to put cold water in the boiler and knock the pops down."

>> This all sounds plausable, eh?

>> The end results in each example are true. However, the way those

>> results are achieved are different from what we have all been told.

>> "Cold" water is a relative term. Water in the tender can be

>> considered as being at the current ambient temperature or shall we say

>> "Cold". Water in the working boiler is "Hot" and under steam pressure.

>> Saturated steam from the boiler is routed from the turret to and through

>> the injector in order to supply feedwater to the boiler. Inside the

>> injector this steam directly comes in contact with the cold feedwater

>> from the tender and actually is a type of "feedwater heater".

>> From this contact the steam thus heats the feedwater quite a bit.

>> Naturally it can only heat the water a relative amount. However, this

>> amount is quite a lot and thus the water entering the boiler at the check

>> valve is not "cold" by any means. It is not as hot as the water in the

>> boiler, but, it is not cold either. It can be said that feedwater from

>> the injector absorbs, for all intents and purposes, 100% of the heat used

>> to force the water into the boiler. By natuee, the injector can never

>> supply "cold" water to the boiler. Now hold that thought.

>> Switching to the other side of the engine is what we all know as the

>> "Feedwater Heater System". This includes a steam driven "Cold Water

>> Pump", the "Feedwater heater" and a steam driven "Hot Water Pump".

>> A very important note here is that the "Feedwater Heater" only supplys

>> heated water when the locomotive is being worked and there is exhaust

>> steam to mingle with the cold water.

>> When the locomotive is "working", (read under load), the Cold Water

>> Pump takes "cold" water from the tender and pumps it to the Feedwater

>> Heater section. Here the "cold " water is heated, directly or indirectly

>> (depending on the type of system), by exhaust steam used by the

>> cylinders. Again this "cold" water can only be heated a relative amount

>> by this exhaust steam. Once heated the "Hot Water Pump" is used to force

>> the water into the boiler. This water is also not as hot as boiler

>> temperature.

>> The amount of heat transmitted to the water by the "FWH" depends on

>> how much exhaust steam moves through the heater which is determined by

>> how hard the locomotive is being worked. Since the pumps of the "FWH"

>> system are steam driven, it would be possible to actually force "cold"

>> water into the boiler.Thus the "FWH" is not used while the loco is

>> sitting still.

>> But, for the most part, "cold" water never enters the boiler. Neither

>> the injector or the feedwater reason can supply the boiler with water as

>> hot as what is already there.

>> Back to the injector. As explained, when the injector is turned on, it

>> uses live steam from the boiler to operate. The use of this live steam

>> naturally reduces the pressure in the boiler in order to supply the

>> boiler. It is this use of live steam "from the boiler" to supply itself

>> with water is the root cause of the reduction of boiler pressure and not

>> so much from the relative lack of heat of the water being fed to the

>> boiler.

>> The savings in using the "FWH" is that it utilizes heat from the

>> exhaust steam that has already been charged to the boiler. The effect on

>> any boiler pressure reduction caused by the use of live steam to supply

>> the FWH pumps is minimal.

>>

>> Jimmy Lisle

>>

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