LC-1, LC-2, EL-1a, or EL-3a Sound Files
NW Modeling List
nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
Mon Dec 14 08:17:45 EST 2015
Eric:
You are an impressive font of knowledge, thank you for sharing.
Fortunately the shift to 60 Hz by Metro-North on the former NH came after
the EP-5s and "washboard" MUs were retired, as their transformers were not
designed for the higher frequency. All the MUs (the "M" series) bought by
Metro-North had transformers ok for both 25 or 60 Hz, or in the later
fleets, 60 Hz only.
Dave Phelps
In a message dated 12/14/2015 7:04:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org writes:
Dave:
Although not really pertinent to N&W or VGN, the NH also went with
11,000VAC, 25Hz catenary. I think all of the transmission lines ran at 22,000VAC,
which meant each catenary “section” had 2:1 step-down transformers.
The EF-2 locos were the only NH class (I think there was also one very
short lived experimental) that had motor-generator sets. The NH hated them,
for a rather intriguing reason. You may know that the 4-track main line ran
close to the NY and CT shoreline on Long Island Sound, and thus had to
cross a couple dozen rivers , streams, coves, etc. The significant navagable
crossings were done mostly with swing bridges, bascule bridges, or lift
bridges. Alone of all the movable bridges, the dual two-track bascules at
Cos Cob NY (within stone-throwing distance of the NH’s 25Hz coal burning
powerplant on the Mianus River had a gap in the catenary over the moveable
spans.
Apparently, if the controller was not shut off by the engineer, the
split-phase transformer on each locomotive that fed the 3-phase motor of the
motor-generator set would pick up whatever phase sequence happened to work
when the catenary was re-contacted after coasting across the bridge—
occasionally throwing the locomotive into reverse, and necessitating a tedious
start-up resequence , and even more tedious discussions with the trainmaster.
Very exciting, though unwelcomed by all involved. The NH pretty quickly
relegated the EF-2’s to one side or the other of Cos Cob, leaving them with
next to no operational value on the system.
The best use of an EF-2 was at the NH’s electric loco and MU repair
facility in Van Nest, Bronx, NY. They parked a dead unit that still had a good
motor-generator set under catenary on a siding adjacent to another siding
that was equipped with a short 3rd rail section. The EF-2 took power from
the 11000VAC catenary, and generated 660VDC, which was applied to the 3rd
rail. This was used to test the DC/3rd rail capability of the passenger
locos and MU cars after rebuilding in the shops. No model of Van Nest would be
complete without this feature.
I found your point about the universal motors requiring low frequency AC
extremely interesting—not a technology point I have come across anywhere
else. After McGinnis (may his soul roast forever) and Alpert got rid of all
the motors other than the EP-5, and no MUs older than the ignitron-equipped
Washboards, the NH found itself still forced to provide passenger and
especially commuter service, still with the necessity of using electric
propulsion in NYC, and with an obsolete and decrepit Cos Cob power plant. So the
NH commissioned a study to determine how to convert to 60Hz commercial
power- and ultimately did so. The technical studies for this still exist in
the Dodd collection at Uconn, Storrs, CT—but key to it all (apparently, and
thank you for the insight!) was the fact the NH was no longer burdened by
any universal motors that could not live in a 60Hz world.
Well, have a wonderful Holiday, and a great New Year!
-Eric Bott
From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On
Behalf Of NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 8:45
To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
Cc: NW Modeling List
Subject: Re: LC-1, LC-2, EL-1a, or EL-3a Sound Files
Eric:
Ah, yes, the GN motor-generator locos. Thank you for correcting me on
that oversight. I didn't realize the NH had one fleet of those as well, good
to know.
Yes, a series commutator motor will run on ac or dc, although in the sizes
required for traction applications the ac had to be low frequency or the
sparking would destroy the motor. In a vacuum cleaner, 60 Hz is ok, but for
locomotives, "not so much." Ergo, the 16 2/3 Hz in Europe and 25 Hz in the
U.S.
The three PRRs you mentioned all had series motors. And, of course the
DD-1s were dc third rail locomotives, so except for being siderod locos
they're not what you're after on sound cards.
No doubt about it, the siderod locos with the three phase induction motors
will sound different from the axle-hung series motor locomotives.
Again, good luck with your sound card investigations!
Dave Phelps
In a message dated 12/12/2015 8:32:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
_nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org_ (mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org) writes:
Dave:
Actually, I was all over the map. The NH EP-5, PRR E-3b, E-2c, and E-44,
all had ignitron rectifier locos like VGN EL-C, and delivered DC to the
traction motors. The GN W1, Y1, and Z1 all had motor-generator set(s), and
delivered only DC current to the traction motors, as did the NH EF-2 and VGN
EL-2b.
The GG-1, and at least all of the NH passenger locos (EP-1, EP-2, EP-3,
and EP-4) except EP-5 had universal motors, which run on either AC or DC.
While the GG-1 only ever fed AC to the motors, the NH fed AC to the motors
except from Woodlawn to Grand Central Terminal, where it fed them DC. MILW,
CSS&SB, NYC, and LIRR all used DC motors exclusively. I don’t know about
the NH freight-only motors and EY-2 switchers (or EY-1 for that matter),
or the PRR O1, P5’s, or R. If they used universal motors too, then so did
the Hoosac Tunnel motors.
But the LC-1, LC-2, EL-3a, EL-1a, Big Liz, and the other side-rodders
(except PRR’s and LIRR’s early DD-1’s) that I’m aware of all had split-phase
transformers feeding big 3-phase induction motors. (Of course, the first
GN tunnel motors were also true 3-phase motors, fed from dual catenary
overhead.)
And big 3-phase motors spinning at axle RPM with 55”drivers sound
different from small 1-phase or DC motors, as do lack of quill/geared drives.
-Eric Bott
From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On
Behalf Of NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 15:11
To: _nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org_ (mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org)
Cc: NW Modeling List
Subject: Re: LC-1, LC-2, EL-1a, or EL-3a Sound Files
This is admittedly beside the point of your request, but the following
locomotives that you lumped as having "multiple small DC motors" all had, in
fact, AC motors:
PRR GG-1, E2B, B, FF, L, O, PP, and R1; all NH except EP-5; all GN; and
B&M Hoosac Tunnel.
Good luck with your project.
Dave Phelps
In a message dated 12/11/2015 1:25:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
_nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org_ (mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org) writes:
I have a couple of NJCB LC-1 sets, OMI and ALCO EL-3a sets and EL-1a
units, a couple of Railworks DD-1 sets, and a NJCB “Big Liz” that I would like
to add DCC/sound to. I have been through every DCC manufacturer web site
around the world that I can think of to find factory-installed sound files
that would reasonably represent a large AC-motored, heavy electric
locomotive with side-rod clank. No joy, except as noted below.
If this interest seems weird to you, then I recommend you get a copy of
Herron Rail’s Pocahontas Glory Vol 6-- if it still seems weird, go serenely
back to your Mollies, confident that you have walked on the wild side and
know better now.
I’m wondering if any of the Modeling List folks out there have already
developed a decent sound file for LC-1 or EL-3a? If so, for which decoder
brand?
Does anybody out there have experience with modifying the sound files on a
decoder of any brand/type?
Has anybody tried to put sound cams on the NJCB LC-1 or OMI or ALCO EL-3a’
s?
Let me note that the GG-1 sound files readily available out there provide
great representations of sounds of heavy electrics with multiple small DC
motors and quill drives—very apt for most of the NH electrics, MILW EP-3 and
ES-2, B&M Hoosac Tunnel motors; not bad for the PRR B, FF, L, O, PP, and
R1 motors, for CUT/NYC P motors, for MILW EF-4/CSS&SB Little Joes, GN W1, Y1
and Z1, NYC T-motors, and PRR E-2b, E-2c, E-3b and E-44; better than
nothing for NYC S motors and MILW EP-2. But the GG-1 sound files don’t do
justice to the large AC-motored heavy electrics, and of course don’t have any
siderod clank feature.
The closest thing I have found are the ESU sound files for the Swiss Ce
6/8 Krokodil motors, having 4 (unfortunately) large AC motors, siderods, and
a good variety of additional sound effects. But, Oh My, the Europeans have
no sense at all for a throaty air horn, so using the ESU Ce 6/8 sound
files as-is is a non-starter.
And the d*** ESU Lokprogrammer is $164, plus a $24 USB cable at Tony’s
Train Exchange, compared to $71 for a Digitrax PR3XTRA programmer, cable
included, from Tony’s, or $90 list price for a QSI Quantum Programmer.
I would much rather go the QSI route, since that would allow me to program
some of the decoders I already have installed on some steam locos, but
would consider the others in desperation.
I would appreciate any advice or insight!
Thank you,
-Eric Bott
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