NW-Modeling-List Digest, Vol 186, Issue 13
NW Modeling List
nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
Tue Oct 30 13:30:09 EDT 2018
Thank you all. Great ideas. Mr Dummler, I live in Peoria. Perhaps we could correspond and meet.
Mike Shockley
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Today's Topics:
1. Commissary - Airslide Hoppers (NW Modeling List)
2. RE: EXTERNAL: Coal operations (NW Modeling List)
3. Re: NW-Modeling-List Digest, Vol 186, Issue 12 (NW Modeling List)
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:38:14 +0000 (UTC)
From: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>, NW Mailing List
<nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: Commissary - Airslide Hoppers
Message-ID: <mailman.1796.1540910737.9817.nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
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All,
? I have been informed that the HO scale N&W Airslide that are listed in the commissary will not arrive until April of 2019.? We will advise of receipt at that time.? Thanks.
Todd Arnett
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 16:00:08 +0000
From: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: RE: EXTERNAL: Coal operations
Message-ID: <mailman.1809.1540918075.9817.nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
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A couple of suggestions:
1) Even on a ?mostly coal? road, there would have been ?hotshot? general merchandise freights occasionally. Fairing them into operations would have required putting coal drags ?into the hole??but with the proviso that the passing sidings be located where the drag loco(s) could restart the train after the passage of the hotshot, and be long enough to hold the entire drag.
2) Same thought would go with a passenger train?the VGN carded the ?Virginia Creeper? once each way per day, and it must have caused engineers on drags to pull their hair out on occasion.
3) Nearly all coal roads had one or more severe grade that would have kept one or more helper crews quite busy. You can pick your helper policy to be more or less complex?from adding a loco to the front of the train, to adding it to the back behind the caboose, to adding it between the caboose and last car in the train, to adding it mid-train. If you want to keep more than one helper crew busy, then you should add a short passing track midway up the hill, to allow a helper engine drifting down-hill to go ?into the hole? to let another up-grade train to pass without stopping. You could require crews to ?double the hill? instead of using helpers, but that would only keep the train crew occupied, whereas a helper district would occupy one or more helper crews, depending on traffic density.
4) Some mines had their own engines/crews assigned to ?dress the mine?, keeping empties under the chutes while placing fulls on pick-up tracks. These locos could range from an 0-8-0 to a Y-6 (or an H-16-44 to an H-24-66), depending on size of mine. If you are using diesels, they would periodically need to go on a fuel run. Some railroads sorted cars according to coal grade at the mine, but I think that both VGN and N&W did that in their yards in Norfolk.
5) Both VGN and N&W had electrified regions, requiring engine changes twice for each drag train from tipple to dock. Crews would typically stay with their locos/districts, so this would allow you to keep 3 crews occupied on shorter sections of your pike.
6) You can always throw in a ?Caboose run? if things get boring. These would typically run counter to the loaded drag runs.
I think you?ll find many opportunities to bring friends into your operating sessions!
-Eric Bott
From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 20:30
To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
Cc: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: EXTERNAL: Coal operations
Does anyone have a coal operating layout that does more than haul coal drags? I try to envision running mine runs with a group of people and I can come up with only one person pulling a train of empties up the branch. I don?t have room for more than one branch. So I?m the one person but I want to have people over to share the fun.
Some do a great job of hauling coal but I think there may be compromises on pure N&W described in books and these lists with the desire to have friends over. Modelling is full of compromises, of course.
How have others modeled coal mining operations? ie picking up loads and dropping empties...etc
Thank you,
Mike Shockley
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 11:40:05 -0400
From: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
Subject: Re: NW-Modeling-List Digest, Vol 186, Issue 12
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Reference Mike Shockley's question about Coal Operations
Mike,
I do not have an operating coal layout but I was the yardmaster at Wilcoe
and Auville yards in the late 1970's. A couple of things to consider.
1. Dry Fork Branch included traffic from the Clinch Valley District,
mostly but not necessariy coal cars from the Clinchfield and the Southern
headed west or coming back to the same.
2. US Steel at Gary regularly got gondolas for scrap steel or tank cars
with oil that was part of the processed coal. The set up of the trains
headed east out of Wilcoe (Tug Fork meets the main line headed west)
required the caboose at the front departing the yard, then the time freight
cars, then the pushers, then the 110 coal cars, and finally the lead
locomotives.
3. Coal operations are more than empties in, loads out. Some mines loaded
"short" loads, dirty coal that was shipped to another processing plant
(mine) where it was dumped, cleaned, and loaded along with the coal mined
at the processing plant itself. We regularly shipped short loads from Dry
Fork to Tug Fork, all the way to the top of the mountain at Jenkin Jones as
well as to the Gary US Steel plant.
4. Back in the day, there would have been time freight cars delivering
goods to the communities far up the branch.
5. Dry Fork, connecting the East-West main line with the Clinch Valley
district served as an outlet when wrecks blocked the mainline to
Bluefield. Amtrak detoured across Dry Fork as necessary.
David Ray
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 10:33 AM <nw-modeling-list-request at nwhs.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Coal operations (NW Modeling List)
> 2. Re: Coal operations (NW Modeling List)
> 3. Re: Coal operations (NW Modeling List)
> 4. Re: Coal operations (NW Modeling List)
> 5. Re: Coal operations (NW Modeling List)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 01:29:52 +0000 (UTC)
> From: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> To: "nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org" <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Coal operations
> Message-ID: <mailman.1766.1540896064.9817.nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Does anyone have a coal operating layout that does more than haul coal
> drags? ?I try to envision running mine runs with a group of people and I
> can come up with only one person pulling a train of empties up the branch.
> I don?t have room for more than one branch. So I?m the one person but I
> want to have people over to share the fun.?Some do?a great job of hauling
> coal but I think there may be compromises on pure N&W described in books
> and these lists with the desire to have friends over. Modelling is full of
> compromises, of course.?How have others modeled coal mining operations? ie
> picking up loads and dropping empties...etcThank you,
>
> Mike Shockley?
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>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 06:35:04 -0500
> From: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: Coal operations
> Message-ID: <mailman.1769.1540901569.9817.nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Mike,
> I?m working on planning a layout that will include several tipples, but
> also some action in and around a more urban area based on N&W operations in
> Cincinnati and Columbus with large freight houses and interchange with
> other railroads. My thought is that this will provide some interest for
> visiting operators, and allow me to use the large number or boxcars and
> refrigerator cars I enjoy building along with my coal fleet. I model 1927,
> so it?s all steam.
>
> Jeremy Dummler
> Wauconda, IL
>
> > On Oct 29, 2018, at 8:29 PM, NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List <
> nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have a coal operating layout that does more than haul coal
> drags? I try to envision running mine runs with a group of people and I
> can come up with only one person pulling a train of empties up the branch.
> I don?t have room for more than one branch. So I?m the one person but I
> want to have people over to share the fun.
> > Some do a great job of hauling coal but I think there may be compromises
> on pure N&W described in books and these lists with the desire to have
> friends over. Modelling is full of compromises, of course.
> > How have others modeled coal mining operations? ie picking up loads and
> dropping empties...etc
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Mike Shockley
> > ________________________________________
> > NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org
> > To change your subscription go to
> > http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list
> > Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at
> > http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 08:17:17 -0400
> From: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: Coal operations
> Message-ID: <mailman.1771.1540902899.9817.nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi,
> I have a small branch line (proto freelance), about 12*12. The stuff on
> the layout is n&w design and used in real locations. However, the coal
> mines need to be very abbreviated. I have one "real" tipple that is from
> the clinch some where.
>
> It's an around the walls with a center pennensula after a lance Mindheim
> design. My space is not 100 percent the same so it's modified.
>
> In general the layout runs by having coal or coal/empties. I run around
> swapping the loads for mty. Then I sort the coal by size. I was very
> careful about including the nearby town with a combo station. I also made
> sure to have another large industry besides coal for interest. A wood
> finishing Mill, gives an excuse for a box car. Right now I have a pickle
> salting place, but I have not but the mill yet ... Looking for pics of one.
>
> The mix keeps it fun. I run to shifters, one passenger, one freight. Or I
> combine the two into a mixed for fun. One shifter goes out. The am
> passenger goes, then the shifter goes back. Then the passenger returns.
> Then I do the pm shifter and mixed. My layout has a nice passing siding at
> a branch junction. I use signals, but that is because I love them and
> enjoy making CTC stuff. I use flagging instructions like on the tug fork
> article.
>
> So the whole point is my layout fills up a small outer yard for a large
> branch line. We keep the coal moving.
>
> I change the year by changing out the locos and passenger (get rid of if
> 1959). So you can see M,E,Z or Y6 depending on the day.
>
> David
>
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018, 6:59 AM NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List <
> nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have a coal operating layout that does more than haul coal
> > drags? I try to envision running mine runs with a group of people and I
> > can come up with only one person pulling a train of empties up the
> branch.
> > I don?t have room for more than one branch. So I?m the one person but I
> > want to have people over to share the fun.
> > Some do a great job of hauling coal but I think there may be compromises
> > on pure N&W described in books and these lists with the desire to have
> > friends over. Modelling is full of compromises, of course.
> > How have others modeled coal mining operations? ie picking up loads and
> > dropping empties...etc
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Mike Shockley
> > ________________________________________
> > NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org
> > To change your subscription go to
> > http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list
> > Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at
> > http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 08:36:38 -0400
> From: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: Coal operations
> Message-ID: <mailman.1775.1540903922.9817.nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Hi Mike
> I suggest you look at the website Appalachian railroad modeling. Great
> ideas there.
> Also. There was an email thread a while back about a meat packing or
> distribution company serviced by N&W that was located in Northfork and
> serviced by the railroad. Very interesting different revenue in the middle
> of coal country.
>
> Tom Lewis
>
> > On Oct 29, 2018, at 9:29 PM, NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List <
> nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have a coal operating layout that does more than haul coal
> drags? I try to envision running mine runs with a group of people and I
> can come up with only one person pulling a train of empties up the branch.
> I don?t have room for more than one branch. So I?m the one person but I
> want to have people over to share the fun.
> > Some do a great job of hauling coal but I think there may be compromises
> on pure N&W described in books and these lists with the desire to have
> friends over. Modelling is full of compromises, of course.
> > How have others modeled coal mining operations? ie picking up loads and
> dropping empties...etc
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Mike Shockley
> > ________________________________________
> > NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org
> > To change your subscription go to
> > http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list
> > Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at
> > http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:25:27 +0000
> From: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: Coal operations
> Message-ID: <mailman.1788.1540909985.9817.nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Mike:
>
> I model modern NS along the N&W Clinch Valley District west of St. Paul,
> VA to Norton and on to Appalachia on the old Interstate RR. The layout is
> going to get started this winter, if all goes according to plan. It is a
> nearly full sized basement plan. I have modified the prototype to be more
> inclusive of what your question is, as was mine previously, how to better
> engage non-coal operations and interest for the operating crews, but it
> will follow the line in order from east to west. For years I have been
> involved in a Friday night round-robin group that is operations oriented.
> There are some of us who view the ops sessions as seriously as a war-game,
> while others are very lax in following rules, which are slightly important,
> especially when you are running timetable & train orders, but that's
> another discussion.
>
> While my layouts' plan and operations are coal driven, there will be some
> CSX run-through traffic off of the Clinchfield and the old L&N's Cumberland
> Valley District, just to add some color. The layout will feature some
> single car spot coal loading facilities, such as Spring, VA and Hawthorne,
> VA and others along the Southern's St. Charles branch. There will be
> operating modern flood loaders such as Paragon's facilities at Big Tom's
> Creek, VA, and Kelly View, VA, as well as Dixiana, VA and the now-closed
> loading facility at Ramsey, VA which served both the N&W and Interstate
> lines. So there will be crews to switch the single car loadouts and unit
> train runs that will get physical flood loaded during the op sessions. I
> also have included two ammonium nitrate plants, as well as a lumber
> facility, the Pepsi plant in Norton along with Carter Caterpillar also in
> Norton. I am also "improving" the old building supply location in St. Paul,
> VA to now be a ready-mix concrete facility that will
> receive sand, stone, cement and fly ash all via rail. The two Norton
> businesses (Cat and Pepsi) no longer receive rail service, but they all
> fall under the "it's my layout" rules. The non-coal operations will get
> switched out separately from the coal shifters / switchers / mine runs. I
> am using a list of local switcher train ID's that were based on ID's that
> are used out of Norton and Andover yards, that are in the U40's and U50's,
> with pushers as J trains. Road trains will follow older NS train ID's in
> the 700's and 800 number series for the appropriate origins and
> destinations, as over the past decade as coal traffic has shifted from the
> region to the Illinois and Monongahela Coal Basins, the train ID's have
> shifted away as well.
>
> Also, keep in mind that older train operations throughout Appalachia were
> more than just coal, as vehicular transportation into and out of the region
> was not what it is today, so you would see LCL cars with meats, foods and
> residential dry goods, as well as single car commercial dry goods into and
> out of the region via rail, along with mail and passenger service. These
> can be realistically added to suit your taste.
>
> Dan Borque has a wonderfully broad website for Appalachian Modeling,
> https://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/ , that is a great reference
> point for those interested. It covers most if not all of the Appalachian
> based railroads from as far south as the Tennessee Central, L&N and
> Southern to as far north as the Monongahela, P&LE and W&LE, and includes
> our beloved N&W, Virginian and the Chesapeake & Western lines. Dan's site
> covers layout plans for small bedroom operations (~12' x 12') all the way
> up to full sized basements, in various scales. I would encourage anyone
> whose interested in modelling the region to visit the site, regardless of
> era or railroad preference.
> [
> http://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/arm2/wp-content/uploads/co5865manwv-1024x683.jpg
> ]<https://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/>
>
> Appalachian Railroad Modeling ? The website for prototype ...<
> https://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/>
> Welcome to Appalachian Railroad Modeling! This site is a collection of
> prototype and modeling information for those interested in scale trains and
> modeling the coal-hauling railroads of Appalachia.
> appalachianrailroadmodeling.com
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
> Russ Goodwin
> Oakwood, GA
> ________________________________
> From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org> on behalf of
> NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 8:17 AM
> To: NW Modeling List
> Subject: Re: Coal operations
>
> Hi,
> I have a small branch line (proto freelance), about 12*12. The stuff on
> the layout is n&w design and used in real locations. However, the coal
> mines need to be very abbreviated. I have one "real" tipple that is from
> the clinch some where.
>
> It's an around the walls with a center pennensula after a lance Mindheim
> design. My space is not 100 percent the same so it's modified.
>
> In general the layout runs by having coal or coal/empties. I run around
> swapping the loads for mty. Then I sort the coal by size. I was very
> careful about including the nearby town with a combo station. I also made
> sure to have another large industry besides coal for interest. A wood
> finishing Mill, gives an excuse for a box car. Right now I have a pickle
> salting place, but I have not but the mill yet ... Looking for pics of one.
>
> The mix keeps it fun. I run to shifters, one passenger, one freight. Or
> I combine the two into a mixed for fun. One shifter goes out. The am
> passenger goes, then the shifter goes back. Then the passenger returns.
> Then I do the pm shifter and mixed. My layout has a nice passing siding at
> a branch junction. I use signals, but that is because I love them and
> enjoy making CTC stuff. I use flagging instructions like on the tug fork
> article.
>
> So the whole point is my layout fills up a small outer yard for a large
> branch line. We keep the coal moving.
>
> I change the year by changing out the locos and passenger (get rid of if
> 1959). So you can see M,E,Z or Y6 depending on the day.
>
> David
>
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018, 6:59 AM NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List <
> nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>> wrote:
> Does anyone have a coal operating layout that does more than haul coal
> drags? I try to envision running mine runs with a group of people and I
> can come up with only one person pulling a train of empties up the branch.
> I don?t have room for more than one branch. So I?m the one person but I
> want to have people over to share the fun.
> Some do a great job of hauling coal but I think there may be compromises
> on pure N&W described in books and these lists with the desire to have
> friends over. Modelling is full of compromises, of course.
> How have others modeled coal mining operations? ie picking up loads and
> dropping empties...etc
> Thank you,
>
> Mike Shockley
> ________________________________________
> NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org<mailto:NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org>
> To change your subscription go to
> http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list
> Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at
> http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/
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