EXTERNAL: RE: Bored with steam
NW Modeling List
nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
Fri Feb 22 23:17:20 EST 2019
Erik: I have been a brass dealer since 1973, and a lot has gone thru my
hands.
The main problem with modeling discussions is that there are those in the
minority that has the dollars, skills, time etc. We are not the majority.
That is why massed produced models are made - for the majority.
We are the exception! I am talking about the majority here!
As your comment about the Jawn Henry. The Alco model is a very poor runner
and there are several articles on how to replace the drive. Did you add the
one pound of weight that is recommended?
Did your Alco model come with the copy of the actual locomotive manual?
I have been on the inside of the brass market for years and owned over 300+
models (every piece that was ever made known and unknown). How many N&W V1s
have you seen?
I am very experienced with the secondary market and repowered and repaired
many.
As for plastic or brass there will always be fobbies produced.
Stephen Rineair
From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org> On Behalf Of NW
Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 5:59 PM
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Cc: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: RE: EXTERNAL: RE: Bored with steam
Stephen:
I'm not comfortable with your characterization of "secondary market". Yes,
you could pay $4000 for a really stunning DP Jawn Henry. (Or $4200 for one
of Jack's recently re-released models, new.) You could also pay $1000 for a
serviceable Alco Models Jawn Henry. It's certainly lower in detail, but I'm
not aware of any gross inaccuracies. The flexible coupling between the
adjacent trucks does require tuning to run well, but the OEM motor is not
bad, and I haven't heard of bad gears being a problem in them. At $1000,
I'd expect no bent/broken/missing parts. I've bought plenty of brass models
at $350 and under that only require painting and DCC to be gorgeous models
for display and running. Even if you get a bad motor or gearbox, the cost
of a used Faulhaber, A-Max or Escap motor (all with rare earth magnets that
will outperform a Genesis motor) and the NWSL sleeves and dog bones that
allow replacement of an old open frame motor and drive set are between $25
and $60 combined. A repair person who has a quarterer will generally do a
gearbox swap for 1 labor hour, say $60, and the gearboxes might run another
$30 for a good one. The best quartering jig available costs $200, if you
want to learn that skill for yourself. And all these most often aren't
necessary-it's possible to understand the brass market well enough to have a
pretty good idea what will be required for a given model. About the only
way you can end up with a disaster is if the driver insulation has gone bad.
OK, then if you buy an unpainted brass model and don't have the wherewithal
to paint it yourself, it's going to cost $350 - $400 for a typical
black/graphite/iron oxide professional paint job-at which point you will
have your (potentially unique) road number on it, plus any specific livery
features you specify-in other words, a truly unique model. And if you don't
do DCC installs yourself but that's what you run, it will cost you another
$250 to have DCC/lights/sound installed. So if you started with an NWSL E-2
at $250 in decent cosmetic condition (used market value these days), and had
motor, gearbox, custom paint and DCC done, it would cost you $1000 for a
model you could be pretty darn proud of because nobody else would have one
exactly like it. To get a painted Key Y-whatever, you'll pay $1200 for a
model that has a good motor and a good gearbox, factory paint (or about
$1300 if you buy one unpainted and have it custom painted), very good
detail, runs well and quiet, but has no DCC or lights. Or an unpainted NJCB
Custom Royale model with superb in-cab detailing, plus custom paint, for
about the same price. How much did those 4 Genesis GP-9's cost you, that
1000 other people have the exact same detail set and road numbers of?
I have done this a lot, and I can say with authority that most secondary
market models are not incorrect, do not have bad motors or broken gears, are
not poor pullers/runners, and do not lack good detail-much less all of these
problems in a single model. Sure, you can get screwed if you don't
understand the market or try to bottom-feed, or if the stars align against
you. I've personally had about 3% clunker experience in the used brass
market for all reasons combined, but in 2 out of 3 of those bad experiences
the seller made a material misrepresentation that allowed me to use eBay or
the seller's own policies to cancel the deal. In comparison, when one of
the plastic model producers makes a truly bad model (consider the
Intermountain steam locos or the True Line Trains steam locos), what
recourse have the buyers had?
Somebody in this thread stated that one could make a decent S-1 out of a
Proto-1000 USRA 0-8-0. I don't know enough to judge that, but I would
dispute that it's going to end up looking better that a similarly modified
PFM USRA 0-8-0-just considering the appearance of brass vs plastic piping
alone. But since PFM made a really nice S-1a, what would be the point of
modifying an USRA prototype to an N&W-specific model? And if one is going
to modify either a plastic OR a brass model, fresh paint will be required in
any case.
Now I proud to admit that if a model is well produced in plastic, I will go
for it in preference to an early brass model of the same prototype. I will
gladly throw away my Van Hobbies CP D-10, when the Rapido model I have on
order arrives. I have several brass NH FL-9's and still bought 2 Rapido
FL-9's when they were announced. But plastic is not always better, or even
remotely close. Want to talk about "incorrect"? I don't like that mass
market models of steam locos eliminate ash pan details and show ridiculous
open space between trailing trucks and fireboxes so that a Y-6b, or a
Milwaukee S-2 model (to pick two examples) can go around 22" radius curves.
I doubt their prototypes were ever asked to negotiate even 10 degree curves
(that's roughly 79" radius in HO scale.) I despise shortcuts like painting
a 2-8-8-8-2 in Virginian colors so no die changes need be made to an Erie
triplex model to sell a few more. (Oh, and btw, in that MTH model, only two
of the three engines are powered!) I despise that a company will sell an
USRA light pacific model in 16 different RR liveries with not one single
detail change. But that's inescapably the "incorrectness" you are going to
get when you decide you can't spend more than $300 for a small steam loco,
or more than $600 for a large one.
Now I will agree wholeheartedly that the Genesis diesel models, and the
latest Bowser diesel models, and several other brands of diesel models, are
superb. They can be because they can accurately represent hundreds of
prototypes that were, other than paint, identical to each other, and
therefore have broad markets for their identical models. I would not buy a
brass diesel model in favor of a great plastic diesel model. OK, so show me
a great (or any) plastic DR-4-4-1500. No? How about a DR-6-4-2000? No? I
should scratch-build one if I don't want inaccuracies, bad motors, bad
gears, missing parts, bad detail?? Should I buy an Athearn UP veranda
turbine with 4 axel drive, instead of an OMI model with 8 axel drive, to get
away from "poor pulling/running"?
I don't think so either, but everybody gets to vote with their own wallet.
-Eric Bott
From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf
Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 14:06
To: 'NW Modeling List' <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> >
Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: Bored with steam
Brent: A DP Jawn Henry just went for over $4000.00. Secondary market is
great if you have a good piece.
Most Secondary market models are incorrect, bad motors, broken gears,
missing parts, poor pullers/runners, lacking good detail.
So your cheap brass model becomes an expensive model after repairs and
updating. Which the average modeler cannot afford.
Stephen Rineair
From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org
<mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org> > On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 2:54 PM
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> >
Subject: Re: Bored with steam
You have a W6? I'll give you $2,000 for it.
Although I'm sure you meant that you have a W2. But if it's really a W6 my
offer is genuine
Brent
________________________________
Dr. J. Brent Greer
_____
From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org
<mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org> > on behalf of NW Modeling List
via NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> >
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 1:14:57 PM
To: NW Modeling List
Cc: NW Modeling List
Subject: Re: Bored with steam
I have 2 of the sunset 1st run M class. They run great.
I also have a Z1, and a W6 from NWSL.
I built a K2a from a Bowser USRA mountain.
I made some Sudo-G1's from MDC Old timers.
Bought ONE CF caboose and 8 Gloorcraft ones that I matched to the Brass one.
--
Mark Lindsey
Stuck in the 1930's
From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org
<mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org> > on behalf of NW Modeling List
<nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org <mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> >
Reply-To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> >
Date: Friday, February 22, 2019 at 11:43 AM
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org
<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> >
Subject: Re: Bored with steam
On 2/22/2019 9:56 AM, NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List wrote:
Unfortunately, the "Big Manufacturers" haven't done the M class. It would
be a GREAT loco as it could be modeled as built, or later with a larger
tender, and different pilots, and finally in Strasburg paint. The BEST PART
is that those can be run on smaller layouts. Sometimes the manufacturers
are just missing the point.
A few years ago was a good year to be in O scale! Scott Mann came
through on his father's promise to do the M class. Big tender, little tender
and Strasburg.
Jimmy Lisle
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