EXTERNAL: RE: Bored with steam

[NW Modeling List]

Stephen:

Added the weight, swapped in a pair of Maxon A-max 22x34 motors.  The Achilles heel is still the flexible shaft connectors on the trucks, but all things considered, the Alco model now runs better than the real JH did.  Yeah, I know...

My thesis is that MR is a hobby.  It's meant to absorb time in a satisfying manner-and that satisfaction can take the form of upgrading brass models to whatever standard one aspires to, just as well as running 3x the number of plastic models around a layout, for roughly equal $ spent.

To me, the problem is NOT a lack of model diversity, lack of $ or time.  It's perception of our own limits, and how we choose to allocate our hobby $ and time.  Anybody who can produce attractive scenery, build a craftsman kit competently, lay serviceable trackwork, or wire a layout, has the innate skills, determination, and spare time that would enable him/her to learn how to re-motor a model, re-quarter it after swapping a gearbox, add detail to it, and throw decent paint on it.

Did you pay somebody to build your benchwork?  ...your scenery?  ...lay your track?  ...do you build your own switches, or use production switches?  ...wire your own layout?  All of these represent choices, and the more sweat equity you invest, the less $ you invest, in every aspect of this hobby.  But no matter how much sweat equity you put in, going to RTR diesels for motive power is not going to make this an inexpensive hobby.  And if you did pay for somebody to do everything on your layout, it wouldn't surprise me a bit that you are bored-but I don't think it's fair to blame brass models for that.

On another point, 300 doesn't come close to exploring the range of brass models circulating the secondary market.  Over 1500 distinct models of steam locomotives alone have been produced in brass, not counting different liveries.  For goodness sakes, over 120 distinct models of electric locomotives have been produced in brass.  I've done unique decal artwork for over 150 different models that allows me to expand (prototypically correctly, despite my last posting) on that diversity beyond anything available on the RTR market in either plastic or brass.  Is it challenging?  Yes.  Is it beyond the skills of a typical model railroader?  Hell, no.  Is it boring?  Not to me.  Lack of model diversity?  Hard to leave that assertion unchallenged.

Do I wish additional models had been produced?  Oh, my, yes.  I'm a techno-maven, and part of my interest in the hobby is studying the incredible range of solutions (good and bad) to the toughest engineering challenges of an exemplar's time.  But I observe, as a formally trained mechanical engineer, that the range of solutions is less varied in the modern diesel era than from, say, 1910 - 1950, precisely because diesel and traction motor technology, and diesel locomotives, have become commoditized.  I'd be bored by it, except that there's just so much else in life worth doing.

-Eric Bott


From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 22:17
To: 'NW Modeling List' <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: RE: EXTERNAL: RE: Bored with steam

Erik: I have been a brass dealer since 1973, and a lot has gone thru my hands.
The main problem with  modeling discussions is that there are those in the minority that has the dollars, skills, time etc. We are not the majority.
That is why massed produced models are made - for the majority.
We are the exception! I am talking about the majority here!

As your comment about the Jawn Henry. The Alco model is a very poor runner and there are several articles on how to replace the drive. Did you add the one pound of weight that is recommended?
Did your Alco model come with the copy of the actual locomotive manual?
I have been on the inside of the brass market for years and owned over 300+ models (every piece that was ever made known and unknown).  How many N&W V1s have you seen?
I am very experienced with the secondary  market and repowered and repaired many.
As for plastic or brass there will always be fobbies produced.
Stephen Rineair

From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org>> On Behalf Of NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 5:59 PM
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>>
Cc: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>>
Subject: RE: EXTERNAL: RE: Bored with steam

Stephen:

I'm not comfortable with your characterization of "secondary market".  Yes, you could pay $4000 for a really stunning DP Jawn Henry.  (Or $4200 for one of Jack's recently re-released models, new.)  You could also pay $1000 for a serviceable Alco Models Jawn Henry.  It's certainly lower in detail, but I'm not aware of any gross inaccuracies.  The flexible coupling between the adjacent trucks does require tuning to run well, but the OEM motor is not bad, and I haven't heard of bad gears being a problem in them.  At $1000, I'd expect no bent/broken/missing parts.  I've bought plenty of brass models at $350 and under that only require painting and DCC to be gorgeous models for display and running.  Even if you get a bad motor or gearbox, the cost of a used Faulhaber, A-Max or Escap motor (all with rare earth magnets that will outperform a Genesis motor) and the NWSL sleeves and dog bones that allow replacement of an old open frame motor and drive set are between $25 and $60 combined.  A repair person who has a quarterer will generally do a gearbox swap for 1 labor hour, say $60, and the gearboxes might run another $30 for a good one.  The best quartering jig available costs $200, if you want to learn that skill for yourself.  And all these most often aren't necessary-it's possible to understand the brass market well enough to have a pretty good idea what will be required for a given model.  About the only way you can end up with a disaster is if the driver insulation has gone bad.

OK, then if you buy an unpainted brass model and don't have the wherewithal to paint it yourself, it's going to cost $350 - $400 for a typical black/graphite/iron oxide professional paint job-at which point you will have your (potentially unique) road number on it, plus any specific livery features you specify-in other words, a truly unique model.  And if you don't do DCC installs yourself but that's what you run, it will cost you another $250 to have DCC/lights/sound installed.  So if you started with an NWSL E-2 at $250 in decent cosmetic condition (used market value these days), and had motor, gearbox, custom paint and DCC done, it would cost you $1000 for a model you could be pretty darn proud of because nobody else would have one exactly like it.  To get a painted Key Y-whatever, you'll pay $1200 for a model that has a good motor and a good gearbox, factory paint (or about $1300 if you buy one unpainted and have it custom painted), very good detail, runs well and quiet, but has no DCC or lights.  Or an unpainted NJCB Custom Royale model with superb in-cab detailing, plus custom paint, for about the same price.  How much did those 4 Genesis GP-9's cost you, that 1000 other people have the exact same detail set and road numbers of?

I have done this a lot, and I can say with authority that most secondary market models are not incorrect, do not have bad motors or broken gears, are not poor pullers/runners, and do not lack good detail-much less all of these problems in a single model.  Sure, you can get screwed if you don't understand the market or try to bottom-feed, or if the stars align against you.  I've personally had about 3% clunker experience in the used brass market for all reasons combined, but in 2 out of 3 of those bad experiences the seller made a material misrepresentation that allowed me to use eBay or the seller's own policies to cancel the deal.  In comparison, when one of the plastic model producers makes a truly bad model (consider the Intermountain steam locos or the True Line Trains steam locos), what recourse have the buyers had?

Somebody in this thread stated that one could make a decent S-1 out of a Proto-1000 USRA 0-8-0.  I don't know enough to judge that, but I would dispute that it's going to end up looking better that a similarly modified PFM USRA 0-8-0-just considering the appearance of brass vs plastic piping alone.  But since PFM made a really nice S-1a, what would be the point of modifying an USRA prototype to an N&W-specific model?  And if one is going to modify either a plastic OR a brass model, fresh paint will be required in any case.

Now I proud to admit that if a model is well produced in plastic, I will go for it in preference to an early brass model of the same prototype.  I will gladly throw away my Van Hobbies CP D-10, when the Rapido model I have on order arrives.  I have several brass NH FL-9's and still bought 2 Rapido FL-9's when they were announced.  But plastic is not always better, or even remotely close.  Want to talk about "incorrect"?  I don't like that mass market models of steam locos eliminate ash pan details and show ridiculous open space between trailing trucks and fireboxes so that a Y-6b, or a Milwaukee S-2 model (to pick two examples) can go around 22" radius curves.  I doubt their prototypes were ever asked to negotiate even 10 degree curves (that's roughly 79" radius in HO scale.)  I despise shortcuts like painting a 2-8-8-8-2 in Virginian colors so no die changes need be made to an Erie triplex model to sell a few more.  (Oh, and btw, in that MTH model, only two of the three engines are powered!)  I despise that a company will sell an USRA light pacific model in 16 different RR liveries with not one single detail change.  But that's inescapably the "incorrectness" you are going to get when you decide you can't spend more than $300 for a small steam loco, or more than $600 for a large one.

Now I will agree wholeheartedly that the Genesis diesel models, and the latest Bowser diesel models, and several other brands of diesel models, are superb.  They can be because they can accurately represent hundreds of prototypes that were, other than paint, identical to each other, and therefore have broad markets for their identical models.  I would not buy a brass diesel model in favor of a great plastic diesel model.  OK, so show me a great (or any) plastic DR-4-4-1500.  No?  How about a DR-6-4-2000?  No?  I should scratch-build one if I don't want inaccuracies, bad motors, bad gears, missing parts, bad detail??  Should I buy an Athearn UP veranda turbine with 4 axel drive, instead of an OMI model with 8 axel drive, to get away from "poor pulling/running"?

I don't think so either, but everybody gets to vote with their own wallet.

-Eric Bott


From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 14:06
To: 'NW Modeling List' <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>>
Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: Bored with steam

Brent: A DP Jawn Henry just went for over $4000.00. Secondary market is great if you have a good piece.
Most Secondary market models are incorrect, bad motors, broken gears, missing parts, poor pullers/runners, lacking good detail.
So your cheap brass model becomes an expensive model after repairs and updating. Which the average modeler cannot afford.
Stephen Rineair

From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org>> On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 2:54 PM
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>>
Subject: Re: Bored with steam

You have a W6?  I'll give you $2,000 for it.

Although I'm sure you meant that you have a W2.  But if it's really a W6 my offer is genuine

Brent

________________________________
Dr. J. Brent Greer
________________________________
From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org>> on behalf of NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 1:14:57 PM
To: NW Modeling List
Cc: NW Modeling List
Subject: Re: Bored with steam


I have 2 of the sunset 1st run M class.  They run great.

I also have a Z1, and a W6 from NWSL.

I built a K2a from a Bowser USRA mountain.

I made some Sudo-G1's from MDC  Old timers.

Bought ONE CF caboose and 8 Gloorcraft ones that I matched to the Brass one.





--

Mark Lindsey

Stuck in the 1930's

From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org>> on behalf of NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>>
Reply-To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>>
Date: Friday, February 22, 2019 at 11:43 AM
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>>
Subject: Re: Bored with steam



On 2/22/2019 9:56 AM, NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List wrote:

Unfortunately, the "Big Manufacturers" haven't done the M class.  It would be a GREAT loco as it could be modeled as built, or later with a larger tender, and different pilots, and finally in Strasburg paint.  The BEST PART is that those can be run on smaller layouts.  Sometimes the manufacturers are just missing the point.

    A few years ago was a good year to be in O scale! Scott Mann came through on his father's promise to do the M class. Big tender, little tender and Strasburg.

[cid:part1.3895FC08.65687709 at ntelos.net]

[cid:part2.38035458.D31A46CA at ntelos.net][cid:part3.DE91D314.9827B469 at ntelos.net]

Jimmy Lisle


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