Potential Brass Surrogates, Virginian PAs

Mon Nov 4 12:45:02 EST 2019

Hi, Eric.
Impressive research for the PA. I have to say your term "economy donors" may be far off for the list of engines you suggest. I have never seen any C&O F-17 that came close to an economical price by any importer. They always seem to go in the $800+ area and are worth the price. The Rutland NERS engine is fairly rare and also priced in the high end to me. The NWSL NP engines are probably the most reasonably priced engines of the 3 you mentioned and can also be somewhat hard to find. 
A comparison between available HO Pacifics and the PA is a matter of balancing what they all have to offer, price, availability and skill level to perform the changes necessary and just what compromises one is willing to make. 
The NWSL N&W E-2 might be a better starting place cost wise than the others. It has 70" drivers but 1" in HO shouldn't be noticeable. It has a decent drive and is well made. You'd have the VG issue and many other things to change but it is a very attainable engine and usually at lower prices.
There's a fellow Anthracite Modeler that makes his own boilers and conversions on youtube. His methods are simple and cheap. Perhaps that might help you with the PA?
How to: Building Boilers from Scratch in Styrene

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How to: Building Boilers from Scratch in Styrene

The first clinic I have done is the one, general information on making boilers from styrene. A common question i...
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Best of luck with the project and I anxiously await seeing your progress!
Roger HuberDeer Creek Locomotive Works 

    On Monday, November 4, 2019, 11:28:15 AM CST, NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote:  

I got to thinking about what models might make good donors for a VGN PA project.  I looked throughwww.steamlocomotive.com (outstanding web site), and discovered that the C&O F-17, CIL K-1 & K-2, CRI&P P-28 & P-32, MP P-69, NP Q-1 through Q4, and Rutland K-1 all had 69” drivers, and within a foot of the PA’s driver wheelbase.  The overall engine wheelbases differed by a bit more, but could be corrected by lengthening or shortening the lead truck and/or trailing truck pivot-to-axle lengths by a bit. 

Of these prototypes, HO models have been made of only the C&O F-17 (PFM, Key, Challenger), the NP Q-1 through Q-4 (W&R and PSC), and the Rutland K-1 (NERS).  O models have only been made of the NP Q-4 (PSC).

Other dimensions/features of potential interest:

VGN PA               C&O F-17            NP Q-1                NP Q-2                           NP Q-3                NP Q-4                Rutland K-1

Driver Dia                         69”                       69”                       69”                       69”                             69”                       69”                       69”

Driver WB                         12.17’                  13’                       12’                       12’                             12’                       12’                       13’

Engine WB                        34.75’                  34.75’                  32.5’                    33.41’                             32.5’                    32.5’                    35.83’

Cyl Bore x Stroke             26”x28”              27”x28”             22”x26”              16.5”x26”           24.5”x26”           23”x26”             25”x28”

Engine Wt                         298,000#            312,605#           225,500#              240,000#            236,000#            237,600             278,000#

Valve Gear                        Baker                 Walschaert        Stephenson              Walschaert        Walschaert        Walschaert        Walschaert

It is seen that the NP engines were very small compared to the PA.  On the other hand, if you’re an O-scaler, maybe you start with a PSC Q-4 chassis, and do a complete new superstructure.  In HO scale, the C&O F-17 and Rutland K-1 look like better bets, with cylinders “close enough” in bore and stroke, and the 5% - 7% weight difference means that one might even be able to use much of the C&O or Rutland boiler.  I have to admit, though, that a Baker-to-Walschaert conversion would be a problem for me.  PFM made quite a few runs of the F-17, and with Key and Challenger models available, a modeler should have a range of economy donors through superbly engineered chassis/drive mechanisms donors--if you can live with the 0.114” driver wheelbase error in the model.  The NERS model has a very nice mechanism as well, though not as detailed a frame as Challenger’s.  Both are fairly expensive.

Other prototypes that might be fairly close (e.g. 4” or less difference in driver dia) and have HO models: 

VGN PA               B&O P-5              B&M P-2             CN/CV K-3b      DRGW P-44

Model Maker                   -                           Key                      OMI (HO & O)    OMI                             PFM

Driver Dia                         69”                      73”                       73”                       73”                             67”

Driver WB                         12.17’                  13’                       13’                       12’                             12.5’

Engine WB                        34.75’                  34.75’                  33.58’                  33.41’                             33.67’

Cyl Bore x Stroke             26”x28”              25”x28”             22”x28”              23”x28”              26”x26”

Engine Wt                         298,000#            277,000#           221,000#              240,880#            262,000#

Valve Gear                        Baker                  Baker                 Walschaert              Walschaert        Walschaert

The PFM D&RGW P-44 models are readily available and inexpensive.  I haven’t seen many of the Key B&O P-5’s on eBay, but the Baker gear is an attraction.  Greenway has a bunch of 69” drivers available, with both crescent or square weights, in light & medium or medium & heavy, counterweighting respectively.  If a decent set could be made up, I’d rather try to stuff them in the B&O model than the D&RGW model, just because going down in driver diameter is likely to leave more clearance between brake shoes and driver tires than going up in diameter.  For an O-scaler, the B&M P-2 would probably be a better (and cheaper) starting point than the NP option, because the B&M cylinders are correct in stroke, if not bore.

Best,

-Eric Bott

From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org>On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 07:20
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: More Virginian questions about passenger service

Virginian passenger service ended in 1955.

Sincerely,

Joseph Congemi

On Nov 4, 2019, at 07:56, NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

Thank you Jim.  Did passenger service end at the merger?

Walter Davis, Youngsville, NC

On 11/3/2019 7:26 PM, NW Modeling List wrote:

The Virginian Pacifics bore no relation to USRA Pacifics, although I have kitbashed them starting from a USRA light Pacific. Drivers are too tall and boiler needs to be heavier. I overlooked the driver problem, but kitbashed a heavier boiler. The Pacifics lasted till the end of Virginian passenger service, so there was no transition to diesels. However they did get two Fairbanks Morse 16,000 HP diesels with steam generators (presumably so they could handle the business cars on special moves.

Jim Nichols

On Sunday, November 3, 2019, 06:13:52 PM CST, NW Modeling List<nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

Were any of the Virginian Pacifics based on USRA heavy (or light Pacifics)?  I found it interesting that the BA was only used in fast freight service.  What did they use for passenger service in the 1950's?  If not Pacifics, what early diesels were used and when did they switch from steam.  I could probably find most of these answers on the web site or in one of the books about the railroad, but the answers I get from the members are more than information, they are experience - far more valuable.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Walter Davis, Youngsville, NC

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