[game_preservation] Internet Archive Starts Archiving Commercial PC Games?

[Frank Cifaldi]

Benefits to post now, ask later:

-Artifacts are available to researchers and scholars worldwide
-Artifacts are guaranteed to be safe forever: the more people that have it,
the less likely it will disappear
-A large audience can discuss things from more angles than an individual
researcher
-People like me can become inspired to become part of the discussion and
preserve things, too
-Groups form and do amazing things. See: aforementioned Underground Gamer's
amazing effort to publish a complete archive of DOS games.
-Instead of wasting time making phone calls, I can preserve more stuff
-Rights holders and companies can easily acquire things they own but don't
have local copies of and sell it (I've seen this more than once in my
development an publishing career)
-Artifacts whose rights have been lost to the sands of time can be accessed

Benefits to getting permission:

-Rights holders can, theoretically, sell a product that a software pirate
would have a moderately difficult time finding online
-...?

Marty, I appreciate your perspective, but Jason's approach is the only one
that makes sense. If a rights holder doesn't want things on Archive, they
can email Jason and get it taken down while the remaining tens of thousands
of pieces stay up. If Archive tried to get legal permission for everything
they posted, they'd never post anything. We'd lose out on all of the
benefits of having artifacts available, and gain absolutely nothing in
return. The history of games would be written by the corporations that
survive and keep their products relevant instead of by actual historians
who can dig deeper.


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com> wrote:


> Preservation in no way implies how people see and hear what's being

> preserved, and making it digitally available for download and/or live play

> on a website far surpasses those needs. Where on earth did you get the idea

> that no one would see the game if it wasn't thrown up on a website and

> freely distributed? The rights of digital distribution (which is what this

> entails) is entirely up to the copyright holder. Atari, Nintendo, Sega,

> Activision, etc. for instance still licenses these games out and many

> already have current initiatives regarding the purchasing of digitally

> distributed games that this directly conflicts with.

>

>

> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Alex Handy <alex at themade.org> wrote:

>

>> What's the point of preservation if no one can see, hear, or use what's

>> been preserved?

>> On Dec 16, 2013 12:00 PM, "Martin Goldberg" <wgungfu at gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>>> Certainly understandable, though them not getting back to you should be

>>> a clear indication of rights not granted. Either way, I would think there's

>>> a difference between preservation and offering them up on a website for

>>> download and play though.

>>>

>>>

>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Alex Handy <alex at themade.org> wrote:

>>>

>>>> Certainly, some are very easy to source. I've tried to get rights like

>>>> this for preservation purposes before, and it's a very, very difficult row

>>>> to hoe. Even knowing who owns the games, they won't return your calls...

>>>>

>>>> There is stuff out there that's vanishing, and i love Jason's save it

>>>> all attitude.

>>>> On Dec 16, 2013 11:18 AM, "Martin Goldberg" <wgungfu at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> That's certainly not the case with any of the Atari games and some of

>>>>> the other related companies. They're very easy to source.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Alex Handy <alex at themade.org> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> Problem is most of the stuff he's preserving is damn near impossible

>>>>>> to source ip rights on. 80's game companies have all been sold off a dozen

>>>>>> times, and the companies that still own those rights probably don't even

>>>>>> know they own them..

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Ip is a mess right now. I think Jason is doing the right thing.

>>>>>> Waiting for companies to give him permission would basically doom the

>>>>>> project to failure.

>>>>>> On Dec 16, 2013 9:30 AM, "Andrew Perti" <andrew.perti at thesimm.org>

>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I recently had a lengthy discussion with Jason about this. He's

>>>>>>> using what he calls the 'back door' method, rather than the legal and

>>>>>>> conventional 'front door.' A 'let's see what happens' approach.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Preservation, to me, does not necessarily include making something

>>>>>>> publicly available. This is especially true when you don't hold an original

>>>>>>> to reference from. I'd call it piracy with rose tinted sunglasses; at the

>>>>>>> core, mass proliferation of copywritten works (IP) for free. The intent was

>>>>>>> the same and Underground-Gamer.com was taken down this past year

>>>>>>> for gross proliferation.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> We'll see what spaghetti sticks to the ceiling and which falls.

>>>>>>> Though the JSMESS stack is impressive, I'm of the opinion that public

>>>>>>> domain ROMs, shareware, and other freeware may have been a better route to

>>>>>>> get the conversation going from the start.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> There isn't for the Atari related games, so your first assessment

>>>>>>>> is most likely right.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Benj Edwards <

>>>>>>>> editor at vintagecomputing.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> If I had to guess, I think Jason is uploading those commercial

>>>>>>>>> game CDs to force the issue (i.e. preserve them at all costs, regardless of

>>>>>>>>> legality), probably with the consideration that legal action against the

>>>>>>>>> Archive for those old games is unlikely.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Or maybe IA does have some agreement cooked up with those games'

>>>>>>>>> publishers.  But I seriously, seriously doubt it.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Benj

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/2013 3:36 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote:

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> I wonder who that is ;)

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Andrew

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> On 15/12/2013 19:14, Jim Leonard wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/8/2013 1:03 AM, Mike Melanson wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> All of these seem to have a release date of today (December 7).

>>>>>>>>>>>> So maybe

>>>>>>>>>>>> they're planning a big announcement.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> A sampling of metadata for that collection shows "<uploader>

>>>>>>>>>>> jscott at archive.org</uploader>", so I would imagine you can

>>>>>>>>>>> contact that address for more details.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>>>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> --

>>>>>>>>> Freelance Writer / Editor in Chief VC&G

>>>>>>>>> http://www.benjedwards.com

>>>>>>>>> http://www.vintagecomputing.com

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> --

>>>>>>>> Marty

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> ------------------------------

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> --

>>>>>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

>>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> --

>>>>> Marty

>>>>>

>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> --

>>> Marty

>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>

>>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> game_preservation mailing list

>> game_preservation at igda.org

>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>

>>

>

>

> --

> Marty

>

> _______________________________________________

> game_preservation mailing list

> game_preservation at igda.org

> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>

>

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