[game_preservation] Internet Archive Starts Archiving Commercial PC Games?
Henry Lowood
lowood at stanford.edu
Mon Dec 16 17:21:57 EST 2013
All,
Two quick points to add that have not been mentioned:
1. If a rights-holder denies permission to re-distribute, that
restriction goes away when copyright expires IF the permission is solely
based on copyright. Note that libraries hold many materials that are
still under copyright. Copyright expires eventually, so there is a
long-term perspective to consider.
2. It is important to keep in mind that some use restrictions are based
on licenses, terms of use, etc.: contract law not copyright law. This
is a legal factor that does not get as much attention as DMCA, but it is
a real one. These restrictions may not be tied to copyright and may not
expire when copyright expires.
Both of these are points to consider. Again, I am not taking a position
here about IA's policies or procedures.
Henry
On 12/16/2013 2:10 PM, Alex Handy wrote:
> Jason has explained the take-down procedures at IA to me. I wouldn't
> worry too much about it. Let's just say that the worst possible thing
> that can happen at IA is if something has it's public links removed.
> Nothing is ever deleted....
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com
> <mailto:dmonnens at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> No, I agree the stuff should be available for learning, research,
> and enjoyment.
>
> Jason's been taking this stance for awhile actually, starting at
> least in the public blog he posted a few months back.
>
> I think it's an interesting and useful step forward, but I hope
> it's not one that is going to turn sour for the IA (like with
> Google Books, although they had a large enough budget to absorb
> the damages). Maybe there will be some sort of ruling that makes
> sense for everybody.
>
> And as much as I'd like my students to have access to these, I
> don't think I can use the archive as required reading because
> we're a private institution, which means we have different
> restrictions than a public university would. However, I doubt
> that's a problem for most everyone else here.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Frank Cifaldi <fcifaldi at gmail.com
> <mailto:fcifaldi at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Benefits to post now, ask later:
>
> -Artifacts are available to researchers and scholars worldwide
> -Artifacts are guaranteed to be safe forever: the more people
> that have it, the less likely it will disappear
> -A large audience can discuss things from more angles than an
> individual researcher
> -People like me can become inspired to become part of the
> discussion and preserve things, too
> -Groups form and do amazing things. See: aforementioned
> Underground Gamer's amazing effort to publish a complete
> archive of DOS games.
> -Instead of wasting time making phone calls, I can preserve
> more stuff
> -Rights holders and companies can easily acquire things they
> own but don't have local copies of and sell it (I've seen this
> more than once in my development an publishing career)
> -Artifacts whose rights have been lost to the sands of time
> can be accessed
>
> Benefits to getting permission:
>
> -Rights holders can, theoretically, sell a product that a
> software pirate would have a moderately difficult time finding
> online
> -...?
>
> Marty, I appreciate your perspective, but Jason's approach is
> the only one that makes sense. If a rights holder doesn't want
> things on Archive, they can email Jason and get it taken down
> while the remaining tens of thousands of pieces stay up. If
> Archive tried to get legal permission for everything they
> posted, they'd never post anything. We'd lose out on all of
> the benefits of having artifacts available, and gain
> absolutely nothing in return. The history of games would be
> written by the corporations that survive and keep their
> products relevant instead of by actual historians who can dig
> deeper.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Martin Goldberg
> <wgungfu at gmail.com <mailto:wgungfu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Preservation in no way implies how people see and hear
> what's being preserved, and making it digitally available
> for download and/or live play on a website far surpasses
> those needs. Where on earth did you get the idea that no
> one would see the game if it wasn't thrown up on a website
> and freely distributed? The rights of digital distribution
> (which is what this entails) is entirely up to the
> copyright holder. Atari, Nintendo, Sega, Activision, etc.
> for instance still licenses these games out and many
> already have current initiatives regarding the purchasing
> of digitally distributed games that this directly
> conflicts with.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Alex Handy
> <alex at themade.org <mailto:alex at themade.org>> wrote:
>
> What's the point of preservation if no one can see,
> hear, or use what's been preserved?
>
> On Dec 16, 2013 12:00 PM, "Martin Goldberg"
> <wgungfu at gmail.com <mailto:wgungfu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Certainly understandable, though them not getting
> back to you should be a clear indication of rights
> not granted. Either way, I would think there's a
> difference between preservation and offering them
> up on a website for download and play though.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Alex Handy
> <alex at themade.org <mailto:alex at themade.org>> wrote:
>
> Certainly, some are very easy to source. I've
> tried to get rights like this for preservation
> purposes before, and it's a very, very
> difficult row to hoe. Even knowing who owns
> the games, they won't return your calls...
>
> There is stuff out there that's vanishing, and
> i love Jason's save it all attitude.
>
> On Dec 16, 2013 11:18 AM, "Martin Goldberg"
> <wgungfu at gmail.com <mailto:wgungfu at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> That's certainly not the case with any of
> the Atari games and some of the other
> related companies. They're very easy to
> source.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Alex
> Handy <alex at themade.org
> <mailto:alex at themade.org>> wrote:
>
> Problem is most of the stuff he's
> preserving is damn near impossible to
> source ip rights on. 80's game
> companies have all been sold off a
> dozen times, and the companies that
> still own those rights probably don't
> even know they own them..
>
> Ip is a mess right now. I think Jason
> is doing the right thing. Waiting for
> companies to give him permission would
> basically doom the project to failure.
>
> On Dec 16, 2013 9:30 AM, "Andrew
> Perti" <andrew.perti at thesimm.org
> <mailto:andrew.perti at thesimm.org>> wrote:
>
> I recently had a lengthy
> discussion with Jason about this.
> He's using what he calls the 'back
> door' method, rather than the
> legal and conventional 'front
> door.' A 'let's see what happens'
> approach.
>
> Preservation, to me, does not
> necessarily include making
> something publicly available. This
> is especially true when you don't
> hold an original to reference
> from. I'd call it piracy with rose
> tinted sunglasses; at the core,
> mass proliferation of copywritten
> works (IP) for free. The intent
> was the same and
> Underground-Gamer.com
> <http://Underground-Gamer.com> was
> taken down this past year for
> gross proliferation.
>
> We'll see what spaghetti sticks to
> the ceiling and which falls.
> Though the JSMESS stack is
> impressive, I'm of the opinion
> that public domain ROMs,
> shareware, and other freeware may
> have been a better route to get
> the conversation going from the start.
>
> Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com
> <mailto:wgungfu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> There isn't for the Atari
> related games, so your first
> assessment is most likely right.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:01
> AM, Benj Edwards
> <editor at vintagecomputing.com
> <mailto:editor at vintagecomputing.com>>
> wrote:
>
> If I had to guess, I think
> Jason is uploading those
> commercial game CDs to
> force the issue (i.e.
> preserve them at all
> costs, regardless of
> legality), probably with
> the consideration that
> legal action against the
> Archive for those old
> games is unlikely.
>
> Or maybe IA does have some
> agreement cooked up with
> those games' publishers.
> But I seriously,
> seriously doubt it.
>
> Benj
>
>
> On 12/15/2013 3:36 PM,
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>
> I wonder who that is ;)
>
> Andrew
>
> On 15/12/2013 19:14,
> Jim Leonard wrote:
>
> On 12/8/2013 1:03
> AM, Mike Melanson
> wrote:
>
> All of these
> seem to have a
> release date
> of today
> (December 7).
> So maybe
> they're
> planning a big
> announcement.
>
>
> A sampling of
> metadata for that
> collection shows
> "<uploader>jscott at archive.org
> <mailto:jscott at archive.org></uploader>",
> so I would imagine
> you can contact
> that address for
> more details.
>
>
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--
Henry Lowood
Curator, History of Science & Technology Collections;
Film & Media Collections
HSSG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries, Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
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