From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:43:39 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:43:48 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Looking for a print Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224318.03593978@127.0.0.1> The N&W Steam Loco roaring past a drive-in movie is a Winston Link photo, and a very good one! It is can be found in one of his books, Steam Steele and Stars, I think. I suspect that the photo itself may be available in poster form at the Virginia Museum of Transportation, if anywhere. They have a number of them, and that is where I would make the first inquiry. Good luck! I might add that that photo has superior artistic quality as well, partly because of the contrast with the airplane and partly because it shows an era of life clearly at the drive-in movie, and partly because it is a good shot of steam power. John McRae _____________________________ O. Winston Link did this in about three or four ways. One was with an A - the 1242, and a jet plane on the screen. Another had an actor on the screen with another engine - I don't remember which one - passing. But they are Links. They were done at Iaeger, W. Va. EdKing _____________________________ [MATT FRANZEN writes:] It's in the book STEAM STEEL & STARS a book of photos by O. Winston Link published by Harry N. Abrams, inc. Hardcover in 1987. Paperback in 1994. ___________________________ It is a O Winston Link photo and I believe you can still get one from the VTM in Roanoke. Fred ____________________________ On page 124 and 125, as well as the outside rear jacket, of the book "Steam Steel and Stars" by O. Winston Link I believe is the picture you are referring to. ISBN 0-8109-1645-2, try Amazon.com or a local bookstore, or the N&W Commissary. JCT ____________________________ The title is "Hot Shot Eastbound", and you can get a copy of this print through incredibleart.com for $28.00. See HTTP://www.incredibleart.com/iartlive/MyArt.asp?PN=btel&sku=2790 Eric MacCallan ____________________________ The picture that you want was made by famous N&W photographer O. Winston Link. Here is a link to everything O. Winston Link, by Chris Coleman. http://www.spikesys.com/Trains/owlink.html Everything O. Winston Link ____________________________ Ken: The print in question is an O. Winston Link shot! Copies of the shot in poster form can be bought from the Va. Museum of Transportation in Roanoke. Jim Gillum ____________________________ You're a month early, the shot you're speaking of is the photo for May in this year's O. Winston Link calendar, "Night Trains". You can get a copy from the N&W HS Ron Herfurth, Charlottesville, Va _____________________________ The print you are looking for is a B&W photo by O. Winston Link, you can find the photo in the book Steam, Steel And Stars, pages 124 & 125. I'm not sure where to find an individual print. J R Elliott jayahr@home.com _____________________________ Ken, I don't know if a print is available, but the Winston Link photo you refer to is entitiled "Hot Shot," and it's found towards the back of his book, Steam, Steel, and Stars. This book was published in 1987 by Harry N. Abrams, Inc., New York. You might try to contact Abrams. John Black Franklin, TN _____________________________ Get last years O winston Links calander. I think it was august. #1238 Y3a _____________________________ Ken That is an O. Winston Link photo. I recall that the Virginia Museum of Transportation in Roanoke has them for sale framed and unframed. Hope this helps. Jon Kelley _____________________________ From your description you are looking for "Hot Shot" , an O. Winston Link photo of the Iaeger Drive-In form 1955. The Va. Museum of Transportation has a number of the OWL posters available, I'm not sure if this is one or not. R.D. Williams _____________________________ I ordered one from the following company. They were selling these via eBay. Be warned, however, I've had two shipped to me and both were damaged due to poor packaging. Be sure to pay extra for insurance, even though neither of mine was insured! I've now got to send both back, at my expense, and wait for a third. I've specified that the next one be sent in a stiff cardboard tube, not USPS Priority Mail box. ShanWa Graphics (washa@wavecom.net) -- Jerry A. Shepardson N&W - Precision Transportation _____________________________ Thanks, Fred, I've ordered the book and am one step away from owning the print itself once I have the details. Thanks again, Ken Moon P.S. Need any help with SP or ATSF, give me a buzz. From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:45:03 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:45:08 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Looking for a print Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224450.03590e48@127.0.0.1> An interesting side note; I think the most popular version of the print had the jet plane on it. But in reality the flash bulbs completely washed out the movie screen. Mr. Link would put any movie scene on the screen you wanted. Because of the complexity this was his most expensive print, about twice what his other prints cost. The VMT did have poster after the Link show was there a few years ago. Stony ________________________________ In searching for Mr. Links pictures, I have had various people tell me Mr. Link is considered the Ansel Adams of Train photography. I am amazed at how he took the photographs to catch each engine. Jon Kelley From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:45:26 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:45:39 2004 Subject: [N&W] RE: 611 derailment Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224520.03559178@127.0.0.1> This is the picture caption from the book, The Norfolk & Western Railway: Williamson Terminal - 1953 by Vern French, pg. 95. "At 12:51am on January 23, 1956, Train no. 3 with engine no. 611 and 11 cars derailed near Cedar, WV, about 80 miles west of Bluefield. The engineer was killed and 60 others were injured. The accident was blamed on excessive speed; the train was doing about 40 mph on a curve restricted to 30 mph for passenger trains. (I am of the opinion that this accident is the reason No. 611 still exists today. After being repaired, the order to scrap the Js was issued. Beginning in October 1959 with No. 604, all of the Js except 611 had gone to the torch by the end of 1959. I think she was in just too good of shape, so she was donated to the Transportation Museum at Roanoke. - Vern French)" This is all I have about 611's accident. Hope it helps. Jon ________________________________________ If you are talking about the derailment in 1956, I am writing a book about that very wreck and if you'd like some more details, please feel free to email me. The 611 was on the westbound #3 "Pocahontas" passenger train and derailed on a sharp right hand curve going about 50-55 miles a hour. The engineer died and about 58 people were injured. The cause of the wreck was decided to be excessive speed, as the curve on which the train derailed was restricted to the speed of 30 miles a hour. The actual date of the wreck is January 23, 1956. The 611 was rebuilt after this wreck, and the condition of her after the rebuild is a factor in the reason she is still with us today. Lois J. Ponton ljpli@hotmail.com From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:46:03 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:46:09 2004 Subject: [N&W] Sound of W-2 whistle Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224559.0359bc50@127.0.0.1> Does any one have a recollection of what the whistle on a W-2 sounded like? In a little more detail do any of the Soundtrax recordings of the Colorado narrow gauge engines sound close? Stony From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:46:17 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:46:23 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Sound of W-2 whistle Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224612.03550ba0@127.0.0.1> It'll probably be found that the W-2 had the same hooter as used on the Ms, S-1s, M-2s, etc. Unless some engineer had a custom whistle on an engine he ran regularly, like F. T. Nichols on the Abingdon Branch at the end of steam. But bet on a standard hooter. EdKing From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:47:26 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:47:31 2004 Subject: [N&W] Conrail E unit Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224721.035a7008@127.0.0.1> does anyone know the status of the E unit NS got from conrail? thanks gary mullis From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:47:40 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:47:46 2004 Subject: [N&W] RE: Conrail E unit Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224735.034bdc20@127.0.0.1> I believe they have it sitting in Juniata. Considering NS was getting 58% of Conrail, I am surprised they only got one. They are definitely not using it for their business train, that is usually pulled by 1 or 2 GP59/60's. Usually an Operation Lifesaver or sometimes the Southern painted #4610. Jon Kelley From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:47:57 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:48:04 2004 Subject: [N&W] VGN Passenger cars Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224753.0356fe98@127.0.0.1> Did VGN have passenger cars? What did VGN use for passengers? What color were they? I have a couple of cases of undecorated Rivarossi streamlined and heavyweight cars I would like to use to model a consist to be pulled by the Y3. I know the Y3's were freight engines but remember I have a steam excursion museum on my layout. Jon Kelley From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:48:18 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:48:22 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: VGN Passenger cars Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224809.03550950@127.0.0.1> Virginian did have passenger cars, primarily for the daily accomodation trains that operated; as well as several observation-type business cars. The early wooden passenger car fleet consisted of coaches, at least 1 baggage/passenger combination, 4 club cars ("Norfolk", "Victoria", "Roanoke" & "Princeton"), business cars "Dixie" & "New River",as well as RPO's & Baggage/Express cars. In 1920, VGN acquired 10 steel heavyweight coaches (similar to the PRR P-70-types), numbered 200 - 209. Other steel heavyweight equipment included business cars Guyandotte River, Winding Gulf, & Fairhaven. These were painted a shade of pullman coach green with gold lettering. The wooden club cars were retired in 1937. The best source & most complete roster of VGN passenger equipment is contained in "The Virginian Handbook" by Wiley & Wallace. This book also has some outstanding detail photographs of some of the equipment. Bill Mosteller has developed an excellent Virginian Passenger decal set with all known car numbers (it also includes predecessors Tidewater; Deepwater & branch lines White Oak; & Piney River & Paint Creek). Bob Moore ____________________________________ I recall seeing a heavyweight coach in Virginian, and possibly in a picture somewhere. The color, I THINK (but not sure I recall right) was Pullman green. Don't hold me to that color, though. I know nothing of lightweights, and kind of doubt they had any. John McRae From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:50:04 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:50:10 2004 Subject: [N&W] VGN and R.D. Bailey Dam Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512224958.03510150@pop.business.earthlink.net> I am interested in maps of the Morri Branch/Guyandotte River Branch prior to about 1970 (R. D. Bailey Dam). I visited the area a couple of weeks ago and found the concrete supports for a bridge at milepost 0.3 on the Morri Branch, and a concrete block for possibly a signal or grade crossing at about 0.4. Also, I found milepost 39 (Guyandotte) still intact (on a public trail!) below the dam. This right of way leads to the dam on a relatively flat(probably less than one percent) path. The main conflict is the myth is that an old Virginian tunnel was used as an outlet for the dam, but the point at which the path ends is at least seventy feet above the base of the dam while not a quarter mile away. If anyone can clear this up, it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, David Estep From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:50:17 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:50:23 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: VGN and R.D. Bailey Dam Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225014.0355fe88@pop.business.earthlink.net> Some debate exists about the tunnels. NONE were used for letting water out of the reservoir. The tunnel closest to the dam - there's debate about whether it was sealed or not. The upper tunnel - is open - and at low pool the up river portal is exposed. ...Kim Hensley _________________________________ The way that I understand it - a Virginian tunnel was submerged under the water of the lake - not used as any type of outlet for the lake. There is a campground on the lake that uses a Virginian tunnel as a part of its access road and part of the campground's roads are built on the former right-of way. Jerry Kay, Portsmouth, Virginia From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:50:45 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:50:50 2004 Subject: [N&W] Hamburger logo Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225038.0355ffd0@pop.business.earthlink.net> Can somebody tell me the date when the N&W logo changed from the 'hamburger' to the uppercase NW? Thanks, John Wiggert j4wiggs@usit.com From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:51:03 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:51:10 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Hamburger logo Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225052.03560858@127.0.0.1> In Cabooses of the Norfolk and Western, Scheme 2A (hamburger) was replaced by Scheme 3A (capital NW) in 1971. This applied to cabooses. Don't know about other items. Should get you in the ball park to narrow your search. Matt Franzen __________________________________ 1972, if memory serves. [Jim Cochran] __________________________________ The Hamburger herald was replaced in February 1971 but not generally applied on equipment until later that year. Dave Grigsby From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:52:17 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:52:21 2004 Subject: [N&W] April in Lynchburg Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225209.03561a70@pop.business.earthlink.net> [Bob Moore writes:] This past weekend was my first look at the train in Lynchburg's Rivermont Park. We saw that poor little Virginian wooden caboose that, like the big C&O ALCO steam locomotive & Southern coach (a look inside this tarnished jewel was like visiting the Titanic at the bottom of the ocean!) it was coupled to, are now among the long-neglected toys left in Lynchburg's attic of memories. Eventually, they'll fall apart from neglect & abuse & disappear on a trash truck. No one will miss them until someone asks, "Hey, that train that used to be in City Park, wonder what happened to it?" I thought of the mighty C&O engine #2700, resting forlornly on an Ohio side track far from her St. Albans, WV home & the school children who gave their lunch money to save her a generation ago. What would they think now? A side trip to Brookneal was a pleasant surprise, the old freight house, bought by a local oil supplier, is in good shape. He wants to restore the outside of the 1920's vintage wood structure that was part of a fair-sized complex in its heyday. He also owns two old store buildings dating to about the same era & has tried to keep them up. Capped off the day with dinner at Bedford's Liberty Station, a converted N&W passenger station. The place is just what the name implies, a nice restaurant inside an old train station & they didn't miss the connection on the decor one bit. It's loaded with pictures, lanterns & such. It's quite a contrast from the Virginian station at Roanoke. The Virginian's been a memory for over 40 years now & the 95 year old yellow-brick Roanoke passenger station with its distinctive sweeping, high peaked red tile roof & generously overhanging eaves is one of the few reminders left. Like an old dowager who has fallen on hard times, her Victorian dignity resists the repeated assaults of time & weather. The feed store that occupies it now apparently lacks either the funds or the desire to maintain it. It's only a matter of time. West on 460 almost to Elliston, there's a back road (VA 603) into Blacksburg that plays tag with the VGN mainline as it ascends the eastern slope of the Blue Ridge. There was a shiny stillness in the air this day that found me pausing at a grade crossing to listen for the high-pitched call of a whistle & the distant panting of a steam locomotive making her run for the hill. But this is 2000, dammit. The big steel dinosaurs rust where they stand. For a time, they were the center of life in railroad towns across the land, watches were set by their whistles heralding the arrival of another train "on the advertised" Lovingly shopped one last time by the remnants of a disappearing generation of steam mechanics as their final gift to lucky on-line communities that grew up with the railroad, they were first gratefully received with great fanfare & celebration, but now they've have lost their luster. Their rusted ugliness revealed by faded, peeling paint, they await an end undeserved. Uncared for, unloved, unable to defend themselves, their bones are picked clean by souvenir hunters, vandals have punched out their lights & windows, rowdies bounce beer cans off these once-bright behomoths that now silently stand bleeding, battered, bruised & beaten by the elements & worse, by people who possess neither the pride nor the decency to care. A lucky few are in museums cared for by low-paid staff & no-paid volunteers. Their reward often manifests itself in the wondering gaze of a six-year old whose awe is expressed simply as, "Wow!" (doesn't get more eloquent than that, does it?). The next question is inevitable. "Can I see it run?" Somehow the explanations of it being too old aren't enough, & the issues of railroad's profits, losses & mergers, insurance liabilities, etc. too complicated. Sure, there are a few tourist railroads, miles & miles away from the here & now. May 6th marks the 50th Anniversary of the N&W #611. Sole survivor of a magnificent race of 14 streamlined steeds, the Class J 4-8-4 locomotives proudly held the point on The Powhatan Arrow, The Pocahontas & The Cavalier between Norfolk & Cincinnati, as well as the Tennesseean down to Bristol. She's an engineering marvel representing the farthest development of steam locomotive technology. When the diesels bumped them off the passenger runs, these black beauties added a touch of class to the N&W freight schedule, the likes of which hasn't been seen since. Restored, she roamed the Norfolk Southern System in excursion service for 10 years. And the old girl still "had it", turning heads everywhere she went as her steamboat whistle cooed seductively to oldtimers & youngsters alike. Then it happened. The program abruptly ended with closing of Birmingham Shops, the only operating steam locomotive maintenance facility east of the Mississippi. The equipment was sold. Now the only way you'll see the "J" run is on video tape. And that's like watching somebody else eat your favorite dessert. Sure you can see it & you can hear it - but you can't taste the moment: the smell of coal smoke, the ground shaking from the pounding of the big drive wheels, the thumping of the air pumps, the smooth, unusually quiet motion of the rods & valve gear, the steam that blows out the cylinder cocks & surrounds you in a cloud & that thump that bounces off the inside your chest when the steam first shoots skyward out the stack with a gigantic "WHOOOFF! - WHOOOFF! - WHOOOFF!". This Lady's talking to you & you better pay attention! Seeing #611 cold & silent in the shed at the Virginia Museum of Transportation, is like being at a wake. People stand on the platform, viewing her silent form & speak in low voices: "I remember her steaming into Radford....." "You ever see #611 high-stepping along New River outta Bluefield?" "Saw her leave Williamson with "The Arrow" back in '55 (or was it '56?).... "How 'bout the time #611 & #1218 went up Christiansburg Mountain? Now there was a sight....." "Gawd! What I'd give to see her run again!" You don't have enough, pal. Nobody does. From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:53:07 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:53:15 2004 Subject: [N&W] Vardo Yard Track Plans Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225300.03525810@127.0.0.1> [David Luttrell asked:] Does/can anyone provide a map of the trackage layout of N&W's Vardo yard to Hager interlocking? Say from any time from the 1940's until the 1970's. If you are willing to part with a copy I would reimburse you for your trouble. It may possible that a copy is in the Societies archieves. If so what would be cost to procure a copy? From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:53:39 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:53:45 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Vardo Yard Track Plans Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225318.034c5d68@127.0.0.1> > [David Luttrell asked:] > > Does/can anyone provide a map of the trackage layout of N&W's Vardo > yard to Hager interlocking? Say from any time from the 1940's until the > 1970's. go to www.topozone.com and type in VARDO. This topographic map dates from about 1975 and shows tracks that are no longer present. > It may possible that a copy is in the Societies archieves. > If so what would be cost to procure a copy? I believe Jim Brewer donated a Shenandoah Division track chart to the archives which was made available through the Commissary. I think they are currently offering track charts of different parts of the system but may offer the Shenandoah chart again in the future. Mason Cooper From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:54:36 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:54:43 2004 Subject: [N&W] Norton Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225431.03554920@127.0.0.1> Guys: I am a new comer to this list and have a few questions about the coal operations at Norton. 1. How many mine runs were based at Norton during the mid seventies? 2. Was the coal classified at Norton to be shipped out to other destinations? 3. I am familar with some N&W coal moving ove the L&N to Alabama, but where did most of the coal go? 4. When did the freights stop coming into Norton? Thanks for any help. David From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:54:53 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:55:03 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Norton Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225446.03555f20@127.0.0.1> To David: > 1. How many mine runs were based at Norton during the mid seventies? ....Semi-educated guess: five or six. Some of the CV mine runs were based at Carbo. > > 2. Was the coal classified at Norton to be shipped out to other > destinations? ....Somewhat. I think it was classified by gateway, with more specific classification with respect to final destination done elsewhere, particularly Roanoke for tidewater-bound coal. > > 3. I am familar with some N&W coal moving ove the L&N to Alabama, > but where did most of the coal go? ......Enslay, Alabama, US Steel > > 4. When did the freights stop coming into Norton? ....Do you mean non-coal freight? I would say most "manifest" business petered out by the mid to late '70s. L&N (later, SBD, and then CSX) quit running into Norton in February 1986, but non-coal freight was pretty thin by then (just a car or two per train, and everything was an "extra" by then). NS is still very active in Norton, with several mine runs based there, and a number of e.b. coal trains via St. Paul each day (plus w.b. mtys) Ron Flanary From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:55:25 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:55:33 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Norton Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225505.03590f90@127.0.0.1> One interesting aspect of the 70's was that Norton had "run-thru" coal trains. The market for L&N's coal did exactly a 180 degree turn. Coal that moved via the Cincinnati gateway for the steel mills disappeared. Instead, this coal found a market in the utility industry in the South. L&N's K&A Division (single track with passing sidings about 35 miles apart) became congested. Trains tied up on the Hours of Service Law. As a remedy, L&N began diverting coal to its subsidiary, Clinchfield. L&N constructed a connection at St. Paul, and secured trackage rights over the N&W for the 22-mile segment between Norton - St. Paul. The meeting to set charges for L&N's trackage rights was convened at the electric co-op building in Norton. Seven N&W officials attended and seven L&N officials attended. When it got down to the nitty-gritty of dollars, N&W's Pokey Div. Superintendent went to the coffee stand, swiped a styrofoam cup and whipped out a pack of Beech Nut. N&W's Treasurer fainted dead away. After completion of the connection at Big Stone Gap (between CSX and NS's Appalachia Div.), it was no longer necessary for L&N (former) coal to bridge the gap to the Clinchfield via Norton-St. Paul on the N&W. Harry Harry Bundy From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:55:47 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:55:53 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Norton Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225536.035469e8@127.0.0.1> Harry Bundy's description of the L&N/N&W negotiations from the early '70s for trackage rights from Norton to St. Paul are dead-on correct (the new connection at St. Paul opened for traffic around May 1973). One other sticking point was the lack of passing track space between those points. The only TC-controlled siding was at Tacoma, Va. But....the N&W used it more for short-term mty or load storage than passing trains. If L&N started adding two or three trains each way per day (and this eventually increased to 10 or more per day before traffic was rerouted via Big Stone Gap in February 1986), this track would have to remain clear for meets. So, L&N had to pony up the bucks to contruct a couple of storage tracks, one on each side of the main, down "Bruce's Straight" between the east end of Tacoma and Coeburn. Those tracks, still in service today, replaced Tacoma as a short-term storage/staging "yard," and the TC-siding thus became a busy place for N&W/L&N meets. Today, however, NS has reverted to the old ways. With the availability of the former Interstate Miller Yard line, which was kept intact to a point near the east end of Tacoma, and swung over to make a new connection in 1985, NS has double track from Norton to that point. And so the siding at Tacoma is now used for storage/staging again. Ron Flanary From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:57:00 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:57:05 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: VGN Passenger cars Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225656.035476f0@127.0.0.1> Let's not forget TLC's reprint of the VGN Rwy Passenger Car Diagram and Data (1928). Which, thankfully, is available via the NWHS Commissary. Jim Moore From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:57:20 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:57:25 2004 Subject: [N&W] Lexington VA Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225711.03546880@127.0.0.1> Whose track did C&O use to access Lexington, Va? Its own or N&W tracks? From what point to what point were trackage rights exercised? Dennis Hogan dhogan@dalsemi.com From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:57:38 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:57:45 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Lexington VA Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225729.03559e50@127.0.0.1> > Whose track did C&O use to access Lexington, Va? Its own or N&W > tracks? From what point to what point were trackage rights exercised? > > Dennis Hogan > dhogan@dalsemi.com ______________________________________ Using Kalmbach's reprint of the 1948 Handy Railroad Atlas of the United States as a resource, the short answer is the N&W. N&W had a segment of track running between Glasgow and Waynesboro. Approximately 11 miles north of Glasgow (i.e., Buena Vista), a ten-mile spur ran to Lexington. C&O approached from both the south and east, via Balcony Falls. The 1997 edition of Steam Powered Video's Comprehensive Railroad Atlas of North America (Appalachia and Piedmont) indicates track abandoned west of Buena Vista. Jim Moore _________________________ C&O's Lexington Sub-Division diverged from their James River Subdivision near Balcony Falls, used a short connection track to reach N&W at Glasgow and had 8.2 miles of joint trackage with N&W to Loch Laird. The 10.6 miles between Loch Laird and Lexington was C&O ownership. Harry Bundy __________________________ The C&O used N&W trackage from Glasgow to Loch Laird Jimmy Lisle __________________________ From Balcony Falls to Glasgow - C&O track From Glasgow to Loch Laird - N&W via trackage rights From Loch Laid to E.Lexington - C&O track E.Lexington to Lexington - B&O via trackage rights Mason Cooper __________________________ Mason, How does the B&O get into Lexington? I thought the C&O from Loch Laid was the only rail route into Lexington. Ron Davis From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:58:38 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:58:46 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Lexington VA Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225826.03552e60@127.0.0.1> [Ron Davis asked:] > > How does the B&O get into Lexington? > I thought the C&O from Loch Laid was the only rail route into Lexington. > Ron: I believe Mason Y. Cooper, graduate of pharmacognosy, is about to spring one on us. Next time you take a trip on Interstate 81, check out the stone viaduct on the west side at Mile Post 219. It was part of B&O's plan to connect with the V&T (?) at Salem. Harry Bundy ___________________________________________ Okay, so what railroad used the old road bed that parallels I-81 on the west side for much of its length, at least between the junction with I-64 near Staunton and Lexington? There is a stone arch bridge on this roadbed about a mile south of that junction, and several streams pass through stone culverts under the roadbed in other places. Was that the Shenandoah Valley Railroad? Greg Harrod ___________________________________________ The B&O got into Lexington via it's Valley Division from Staunton VA. This branchline was sold to Chesapeake Western just prior to WWII. (Traffic was down to 256 cars in B&O's last year). You can still see some of the old stone bridges along I-81. CW kept Harrisonburg to Staunton part of the RR, and tore up the line from Staunton to E. Lexington. It got enough money from rising scrap prices to pay for the whole thing! (Keep in mind B&O got out from under a dog and they did alot of leg work to get the passenger traffic cut off before the SCC prior to the CW sale). C&O then got the E. Lexington to Lexington segment. BTW- The line was originally a Richmond & Alleghany property converted from a canal, which was taken into C&O. If you take the back roads from Glasgow to Buena Vista along the river you can still see some of the canal locks. Mason Cooper __________________________________________ A 1971 map shows the track from Buena Vista as N&W; it might have previously belonged to B&O. Dennis Hogan dhogan@dalsemi.com __________________________________________ I was under the impression that the old grade from Staunton to Lexington had been out of service much longer than that. Regardless, that explains how an "island" of B&O line became left in E. Lexington. Why didn't that get sold to C&W with the rest of the line? Or to C&O for that matter? C&O must have been paying richly for those trackage rights. Reportedly, Robert E Lee supported construction of the line from Lexington to Salem. Never was completed due to the financial depression in the South after the war. The Shenandoah Valley was able to complete its plans due to the deep pockets of Kimball's Philadelphia supporters. One could speculate that the threat of this other line to the SV encouraged the purchase of the AM&O which became the original N&W. Ron Davis From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:59:20 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 22:59:24 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Lexington VA Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225912.03543c90@127.0.0.1> Okay, for the complete story of the B&O in Lexington - look to page 19 of Donald Traser's book Virginia Railway Depots (Copyright 1998, Published by the Old Dominion Chapter, NRHS, P.O. Box 8583, Richmond, Virginia 23226). To sum it up, the B&O had control of the rail line from Harpers Ferry, south to Lexington, reaching that town in 1883. The B&O was in the process of building on to Salem but the completion of the Shenandoah Valley Railroad ended any hope of the line becoming a financial success, so the work south of Lexington was abandoned. In addition to the remaining stone arch bridge south of Staunton, Mr. Traser also reports that some portions of I-81 were built on the right-of-way of the B&O line. The B&O depot in Lexington is now owned by Washington & Lee University. A picture of it appears on page 25 of Mr. Traser's book. Jerry Kay, Portsmouth, Virginia ________________________________________ I sent this response to Bob Cohen who had some enlightening information on B&O's access to Lexington, Va. I'm still trying to figure out the C&O/N&W situation. Some information I have suggests C&O may have had a parallel route very early on into Buena Vista/ Loch Laird which was later given up for trackage rights on N&W's Shenanadoah line. Who ended up with the Richmond & Alleghany right of way in that area? ***** Bob: Thanks for your enlightening e-mail. I got interested in railroads around Lexington (Va.) after a 1998 trip there. I live in Texas, but my great-grandfather was born in the 1830's on a farm south of nearby Buena Vista, Va. While exploring around the area, I wanted to know more about the local N&W, C&O, and B&O lines. (By the way, I found a depot on the edge of the campus of Washington & Lee Univ. Was it B&O, C&O, or jointly used? ) I have a 1930's B&O brochure on the Shenandoah Valley. I noticed B&O and Southern had an odd arrangement of connecting passenger service down that line to Lexington. The brochure shows a photo of a motor car or "doodlebug." In going through some county records in Lexington, I came across mention of the Richmond & Alleghany RR (I think that's right) buying right of way through the family farm. Was that later C&O or N&W line? I'm still trying to figure out if the C&O line to Lexington changed slightly over time. I see mention of the C&O line going west of Balcony Falls with Loch Laird or Glasgow as a junction. Maps I've seen are not detailed enough to show exactly where the C&O joined the N&W Shenandoah line. Either that or maps show different junction points between the two roads over time. Anyway, next time I visit Virginia, I'll have fun exploring the area and perhaps tracing the abandoned B&O line north. Dennis Hogan P.S. I figured out that one of O. Winston Link's published N&W night shots was taken on or very near the old family land. _________________________________________ There are several stone bridge piers, stone culverts and arches across streams between Lexington and Natural Bridge along Rt. 610, west of Rt. 11 that never saw the bridge or track or trains. There are also excavation marks where they had started to cut what appears to be the approach to one of the bridges. They have been waiting for 120 years for the work to be completed. I also understand that there is an arch somewhere near Salem. All of these were part of the B&O's projected valley line to Salem. The maps of the right of way still survive, at least some of them. I pulled them from the ashes of the CW station in Harrisonburg after an arsonist torched the station in 1982. David Ray ____________________________ Dennis, While I do not know what may have been in the past, currently a short 1 mile connecting track breaks away from the C&O just west of Balcony Falls and skirts the east side of the town on Glasgow to join the N&W on the north side of town. This track crosses Rt 130 in Glasgow. A small yard also exists along the C&O in Glasgow. The N&W passes over the C&O 3 miles west at Natural Bridge Station. You can only catch glimpses of both lines between Glasgow and Natural Bridge Station, which adds to the difficulty in determining what is going where. According to the N&W List of Stations and sidings, the C&O connection to Lexington was at Buena Vista, NOT Loch Laird, which was 1.3 miles to the south. The old grade has been converted into a hiking/biking trail. As Mason pointed out, there are some old canal locks along US-60 between Lexington and Buena Vista. Ron Davis From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 22:59:56 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 23:00:02 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Lexington VA Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512225949.035543b8@127.0.0.1> Charles Castner, retired from the L&N and a W&L graduate, wrote an excellent article about the Lexington, Virginia property in an issue of the Washington and Lee Alumni Magazine. I do not remeber the issue or date. Howard Capito From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 23:00:59 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 23:01:19 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Vardo Yard Track Plans Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512230051.035936a0@127.0.0.1> You might also check the Sanborn (Sanbourn? Sanborne?) Insurance maps to see if the plan is there. If the track was there as early as the 1930's or 40's they might have them. I have found several maps (including the Winston-Salem N&W, Southern and W-S Southbound yards) which also include buildings, streets, outhouses, etc. on them. They include the town, not just railroads, so search by the city or town name. Our local library has microfilm of most cities/towns in NC (such as Aberdeen, as in Aberdeen and Rockfish RR) and some others, so you might want to check with a library first about where to find them. They were maps compiled for the insurance industry so it is possible that a very old insurance company in the area might also have the large bound book in which they were originally published and updated (our local library had one of the books which was donated to it by Smithdeal Insurance, which oddly enough, my grandfather used to work for!). I, for example found the city map for Salem and Winston NC for as far back as 1898. THAT map was pretty rudimentary since there was not much rail in W-S then except for the Trolley line (a demonstration line for the US laid out by Frank Sprague -- I also grew up on Sprague Street!) Don't assume, however, that everything in them is the gospel truth -- my great grandfather's planing mill and furniture factory was listed as "Al Hoover's Mill" when his name was A. L. Hoover. I also found a number of little errors in some of the early updates (c. 1910 or so) but nothing that was very significant. Nevertheless, if you are attempting to model an older period precisely, these can be a wonderful resource. They show the relative shape and location of buildings, give the number of floors, porches, etc. Hence, this resource is good for lots of things......Good luck! Richard Barnes red-ford@att.net From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 23:01:37 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 23:01:42 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Class Lamps Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512230129.035b0c98@127.0.0.1> I have locomotive classification lights from a class J and a class K2a, and each seems to be made of aluminum. The different color aspects were made by colored bulbs inside. I also have the lights from 2200 and several other Y's and an A. They are all painted black and they had a clear bulb inside, with a colored lens being available for rotation within the actual light itself to change the outward appearing color. Not having been around N&W steam until the early 50's, I've never seen a locomotive classification light painted anything but black. Caboose marker lights are a different matter. I have a few and some were yellow and some were a dull black or oil stained, unpainted appreance! I welcome visitors to examine them. Aubrey Wiley VgnRy43@lynchburg.net _______________________________ << Recognize that the stamped Armspear had mounts for four lenses however it was used; the Pyle National had two lenses with an internal flip-down green lens for each of the clear lenses. I was told, but cannot verify, that the Armspears carried two clears and two greens adjacent to each other. The train men would have to go the lamp and rotate it on its mount to present the proper class lighting when required. >> The Amrmspear classification lamps that I have have only two clear lens at 90 degrees to each other, with an interior flipper with two flat green lens. The other two openings have been blanked with special made pieces, whether this was done in the shops when electrified or they were ordered this way, I cannot say. The base does rotate so that a class lamp can be used on either side of the locomotive as necessary. << As antiques, the Armspears and Grays are highly desirable. They are not commonly available. The Grays usually had a brass tag that identified the railroad owner. The Armspear lights were not stamped for the N&W. >> I have an two different Armspear switch lights both have original tags soldered on with "N&W RY" markings. These have not been faked, to the best of my knowledge, as they have been in my possesion for many years. Ken Miller From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 23:02:42 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 23:02:51 2004 Subject: [N&W] Whitetop Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512230234.034c8fd8@127.0.0.1> I've been reading the local news lately about the efforts to completely rebuild the former Whitetop station along the Creeper trail,and i was wondering if anyone knew when the first train arrived in Whitetop?,the date the origional Whitetop station was built, and torn down. Gary Price at gpprice_nsc@yahoo.com From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 23:02:55 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 23:03:01 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: Whitetop Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512230248.035437c0@127.0.0.1> [R D Williams replies:] Doug McQuinn in his book The "Virginia Creeper" writes that The town of Whitetop was incorporated in 1913, the same year the railroad arrived. From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 23:03:17 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 23:03:22 2004 Subject: [N&W] Re: J-Class Marker Lights Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512230308.0359a148@127.0.0.1> N&W dispensed with the use of classification signals in single-track CTC and double-track ABS territory operated under rule 251 of the rule book. All classification lights would have been dark. All freight trains were run as extras by superintendent's bulletin superseding the timetable schedules - that let scheduled time freights leave ahead of time if the yard got them ready. No green flags or lights were used to denote sections of schedules, either. The lead J of the Eisenhower doubleheader would have carried white flags as an extra on the Punkinvine, though; that was train order single track territory - no CTC. EdK From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 23:03:46 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 23:03:53 2004 Subject: [N&W] 611 derailment Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512230339.0353a490@127.0.0.1> This is a few of the questions I have concerning the 611 wreck at Cedar,WV on January 23, 1956(which to my knowledge, was her only wreck). 1.Did any Cedar residents help with the rescue effort? 2. How did the N&W find out that the wreck had happened? 3.Could the dispatcher in Bluefield tell (by way of the train board) that the wreck had happened? 4.What caused the 611 to derail her trailing truck in Roanoke? (Harry Bundy is the one who told me about this incident) 5.Why did the 611 look so pale in the wreck photos? Was she covered with frost/snow? If you like to know the other questions, just email me and I'll tell you the rest. Lois J. Ponton ljpli@hotmail.com From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org Wed May 12 23:04:07 2004 From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org) Date: Wed May 12 23:04:15 2004 Subject: [N&W] Punkin' Vine Signalling (Re: J Class Marker Lights) Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040512230400.0353a5d8@127.0.0.1> [Ed King wrote:] << N&W dispensed with the use of classification signals in single-track CTC and double-track ABS territory operated under rule 251 of the rule book. All classification lights would have been dark. All freight trains were run as extras by superintendent's bulletin superseding the timetable schedules - that let scheduled time freights leave ahead of time if the yard got them ready. No green flags or lights were used to denote sections of schedules, either. The lead J of the Eisenhower doubleheader would have carried white flags as an extra on the Punkinvine, though; that was train order single track territory - no CTC. >> ____________________________________________ I agree with what Mr. King has written. It is interesting to read the timetable special instructions in the various timetables from the 1950s, concerning this topic. It would be an interesting research to catalogue all the various permutations of the concept in chronological order, to get the development. From my time of working in train service on the Shenandoan, Radford and Norfolk Divisions, I have two observations: 1.) I believe the J's were restricted on the Punkin' Vine account the length of the cab, which would not fit comfortably through a bridge south of Pine Hall. When I worked there in the early 1960s, almost all the men were steam men, and they told me that only one J had ever operated on the Punk, and that the rear of the cab scraped the bridge, which resulted in the J's were restricted. 2.) The automatic block signal system on the Punkin' Vine was interesting. After I went to work on PRR territory, I learned that they were what the industry calls a system of "Absolute Permissive Block" ("APB.") That is, they permitted signal indications for following movements, but prevented signal indications for opposing movements. (The Pennsy men said APB was "a poor man's CTC.") This type of signalling did not >>authorize<< train movements. Authority was granted by timetable and train order. As I recall, the CTC was installed in stages in the early 1970s, starting in connecting with the new business generated by the Belews Creek Power Plant. -- Abram Burnett, Harrisburg, Pa. Retired Manager-Operating Rules, Conrail Harrisburg Division