NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
NW Mailing List
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Sat Mar 12 10:51:43 EST 2011
Ken and Gordon:
I for one would be very Interested in reading more about the VGN 800 in the
Arrow.Hope you will consider it .
Gordon : As Gene mentioned It would be great to hear (Read) more about your
younger years on the N&W .Thanks, Ken Tanner
----- Original Message -----
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Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 6:29 PM
Subject: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: VGN 800 (NW Mailing List)
> 2. Re: VGN 800 (NW Mailing List)
> 3. Injectors (NW Mailing List)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:35:12 -0500
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: VGN 800
> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Message-ID: <CF4A2684D9E04C2B9C22F95865B52B75 at Jimmy>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> "An injector puts cold water (ignoring the steam used to operate it) into
> the boiler, so an engineer could use his injector in such a way as to make
> life tough for the fireman by killing steam pressure with cold water while
> keeping the throttle way open."
>
> Gordon,
> Short on time here, but, that is not exactly how it works or should be
> told. In other words there is a lot of myth in your statement.
>
> Jimmy Lisle
>
> I should have added that that my reply may cause a number of questions and
> in an effort not to veer the VGN 800 thread off course, maybe a new
> "Injector" thread should be started.
>
> JL
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> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:49:17 -0500
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: VGN 800
> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Message-ID: <A1989C826263484C85A1FD16F64CE108 at Gene>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Gordon;
> Thank you for this info. I for one would like very much to hear the
> stories and experiences of your younger years on the N&W.
> Gene A.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: NW Mailing List
> To: NW Mailing List
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: VGN 800
>
>
> Gene,
>
> With a little trepidation I'll throw out some comments for Ken and other
> to use for target practice.
>
> VGN 800 was built in 1918 when feedwater (heater) pumps were not common,
> and the Virginian Ry., diagram for this class of locomotive does not show
> such a pump although Virginian diagrams for later locomotives do show such
> pumps. Usually locomotives of this era had two boiler water injectors,
> one for the fireman and one for the engineer, although I believe later
> engines with feedwater heater pumps may have had only one injector.
>
> Based on my younger days tending fire and water on steam locomotive (N&W,
> not Virginian) I would say that the fire could be readily dumped into the
> ash pan by shaking the grates.
>
> Gordon Hamilton
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: NW Mailing List
> To: NW Mailing List
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: VGN 800
>
>
> Ken;
>
> I for one would be very in interested in reading your article on the
> 800 in the Arrow.
> Being an ex-Navy Boilerman, should the feed water pumps( main and aux
> fail, which was not likely to happen), and the boiler water level began to
> drop. The procedure would be to drop the fires, easy enough on an oil
> fired boiler, and secure all steam valves. What would be the procedure for
> the coal fired steam locomotives. Were the injectors the only water
> supply? How easy would it have been to drop the fires from the cab?
>
> Thanks;
> Gene A.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: NW Mailing List
> To: NW Mailing List
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:53 PM
> Subject: Re: VGN 800
>
>
> Thanks to Harry for his detailed report. I thought I might add a few
> things.
>
>
> Coming up on April 1, will be the 70th anniversary of the 800 blowing
> up at Stewartsville, Virginia about 5:20 AM.
>
>
> This tragedy killed all three crew members, Engineer John Dudding,
> 46, Fireman Mead Brown, 25 and head brakeman Hollie Harrision, 26, less
> than a week short of his 27th birthday. It would be hoped that all three
> died instantly, as they were thrown great distances and dismembered by the
> violence of the explosion.
>
>
> While the Federal Investigators pinned the cause on a worn and pitted
> injector nozzle, causing the injector to fail. They also pulled a large
> quantity of cinders, coal and mud dredged out of the tender tank, which
> could easily have caused the valve to the injector to have stopped up. The
> injector had been reported as problematic in a number of inspection
> reports both at Victoria and at Roanoke in the months prior to the
> explosion, but apparently tested fine at Roanoke early in the morning of
> April 1, 1941.
>
>
> Of course, we'll never know exactly why the crew allowed the water to
> get so low in the boiler. It could have been inexperience, as Harry
> pointed out, Brown had only hired out on the Virginian about 6 months
> previously, the crew could have been tired or not paying attention.
> Another accident with less dramatic consequences a few years ago on the
> Gettysburg Railroad, found that the water glass could have had some debris
> in it giving a false indication of water in the gauge when there was none.
> One of the photos shows the water column and glass, relatively intact I am
> certain the investigators checked it, but the violence of the explosion
> could have dislodged any debris in the line.
>
>
> I've written a rather lengthy story on the 800's fateful trip, if
> there is any interest, I'll submit it for the Arrow.
>
>
> Ken Miller
>
>
> On Mar 6, 2011, at 8:17 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>
>
> I've not stayed abreast of everything. What led to its explosion?
>
>
>
> Kim
> Huntsville
>
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> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:07:00 -0500
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Injectors
> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Message-ID: <0C843A33A2DC47AF91B4D97DB2A60A00 at Jimmy>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> "An injector puts cold water (ignoring the steam used to operate it) into
> the boiler, so an engineer could use his injector in such a way as to make
> life tough for the fireman by killing steam pressure with cold water while
> keeping the throttle way open."
>
> Gordon,
> I guess we have all heard this same story and it has been ingrained in
> our brain as "that's the way it is". Here is another one you may have
> heard: "as the safety pop valves were going off, the engineer turned on
> the injector to put cold water in the boiler and knock the pops down."
> This all sounds plausable, eh?
> The end results in each example are true. However, the way those
> results are achieved are different from what we have all been told.
> "Cold" water is a relative term. Water in the tender can be considered
> as being at the current ambient temperature or shall we say "Cold". Water
> in the working boiler is "Hot" and under steam pressure. Saturated steam
> from the boiler is routed from the turret to and through the injector in
> order to supply feedwater to the boiler. Inside the injector this steam
> directly comes in contact with the cold feedwater from the tender and
> actually is a type of "feedwater heater".
> From this contact the steam thus heats the feedwater quite a bit.
> Naturally it can only heat the water a relative amount. However, this
> amount is quite a lot and thus the water entering the boiler at the check
> valve is not "cold" by any means. It is not as hot as the water in the
> boiler, but, it is not cold either. It can be said that feedwater from the
> injector absorbs, for all intents and purposes, 100% of the heat used to
> force the water into the boiler. By natuee, the injector can never supply
> "cold" water to the boiler. Now hold that thought.
> Switching to the other side of the engine is what we all know as the
> "Feedwater Heater System". This includes a steam driven "Cold Water Pump",
> the "Feedwater heater" and a steam driven "Hot Water Pump".
> A very important note here is that the "Feedwater Heater" only supplys
> heated water when the locomotive is being worked and there is exhaust
> steam to mingle with the cold water.
> When the locomotive is "working", (read under load), the Cold Water
> Pump takes "cold" water from the tender and pumps it to the Feedwater
> Heater section. Here the "cold " water is heated, directly or indirectly
> (depending on the type of system), by exhaust steam used by the cylinders.
> Again this "cold" water can only be heated a relative amount by this
> exhaust steam. Once heated the "Hot Water Pump" is used to force the water
> into the boiler. This water is also not as hot as boiler temperature.
> The amount of heat transmitted to the water by the "FWH" depends on how
> much exhaust steam moves through the heater which is determined by how
> hard the locomotive is being worked. Since the pumps of the "FWH" system
> are steam driven, it would be possible to actually force "cold" water
> into the boiler.Thus the "FWH" is not used while the loco is sitting
> still.
> But, for the most part, "cold" water never enters the boiler. Neither
> the injector or the feedwater reason can supply the boiler with water as
> hot as what is already there.
> Back to the injector. As explained, when the injector is turned on, it
> uses live steam from the boiler to operate. The use of this live steam
> naturally reduces the pressure in the boiler in order to supply the
> boiler. It is this use of live steam "from the boiler" to supply itself
> with water is the root cause of the reduction of boiler pressure and not
> so much from the relative lack of heat of the water being fed to the
> boiler.
> The savings in using the "FWH" is that it utilizes heat from the
> exhaust steam that has already been charged to the boiler. The effect on
> any boiler pressure reduction caused by the use of live steam to supply
> the FWH pumps is minimal.
>
> Jimmy Lisle
>
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