N&W excursions of the 1950's
NW Mailing List
nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Fri Sep 13 14:27:53 EDT 2013
I'm surprised nothing has been said about the 611 excursions. I personally would like dates and info on those excursions, for a book I am writing about that locomotive.
Lois J.Ponton
N&W steam historian
Sent from my Galaxy S®III
-------- Original message --------
From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Date: 09/13/2013 12:01 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Subject: Re: N&W excursions of the 1950's
Dear Mr. Newton:
Thanks for the info about '50s special movements re: Jim Herron's query.
Any other info out there? I've seen lotsa photos of excursions on the Abingdon branch and elsewhere behind steam and wondered when those trips occurred? Somebody out there has to know! :)
I have a photo somewhere of the Abingdon branch excursion Jim mentioned that apparently took a work train along for the ride. There's a neat story there somewheres methinks.
Let's see who'll respond first.
Also, Mr. Herron, when you're editing that video, please let the shots run long enough so that us amateur historians can see the train at length. I always hate it when a shot cuts away right as things get interesting. IMHO, this ain't an MTV-era herky-jerky shot crowd you're marketing to. But I could be wrong! And the photogs may also have turned off the film after the engine passed too, I admit.
Thanks
Andre Jackson
Atlanta, GA
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: N&W 1950s Steam Excursions (NW Mailing List)
2. Re: Engine nicknames - formerly Re: 1950's N&W Steam
excursions (NW Mailing List)
3. Re: Class M's, Mollies, class names and the like (NW Mailing List)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 20:51:56 -0400
From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: Re: N&W 1950s Steam Excursions
To: <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Message-ID: <2837402D34E9487188D641B3D253348D at NewtonHP>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
According to my records, on May 4, 1957 a railfan excursion was run on the
Clinch Valley District, sponsored by the Baltimore Chapter (as I recall) of
the NRHS.
The group was handled in regular trains Nos. 5 and 6, with their usual
consists plus two extra coaches, a Pullman, a diner, and an open gondola (10
cars total), double-headed by E-2a's 578 and 563.
I plan to cover the operation of this train in a future article in "The
Arrow."
Louis Newton
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Subject: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 99, Issue 18
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> Your fellow list subscribers will appreciate it.
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. RE: 1950's N&W Steam excursions (NW Mailing List)
> 2. Re: basic interlocking signals (NW Mailing List)
> 3. 4-8-0s (WAS: Class M's, Mollies, class names and the like)
> (NW Mailing List)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 16:15:11 -0400
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: RE: 1950's N&W Steam excursions
> To: "'NW Mailing List'" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP1811E0EC0D03EC8A51290968E380 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> A quick google comes up with this:
>
>
>
> http://www.steamlocomotive.com/mastodon/?page=nw
>
>
>
> I have no idea who Steve Llanso is, but in this article he claims the
> crews called them ?Mollies?
>
>
>
> From: nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org
> [mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 7:08 AM
> To: NW Mailing List
> Subject: Re: 1950's N&W Steam excursions
>
>
>
> As I understand it, steam locomotive wheel arrangements were given generic
> names; just as 2-8-2's were Mikados, but referred to as "Mikes," I believe
> the 4-8-0 wheel arrangement was named Mastodon and referred to as
> "Mollies." I have heard this term applied to this wheel arrangement many
> times but railfans, authors, etc.
>
> There is no doubt however, that on the N&W, they were simply referred to
> as M's.
>
>
>
> Jim Brewer
>
> Glenwood MD
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 5:07:58 PM
> Subject: Re: 1950's N&W Steam excursions
>
>
>
> Good for you, Jim. The use of the term ?mollie? sounds to me like one of
> those terms used by railfans to appear more ?hip?, like referring to a
> consist of diesels as a ?lashup?. That one makes my rump want to chew
> tobacco . . .
>
>
>
> Best -
>
>
>
> Ed
>
>
>
> From: NW Mailing List <mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 2:37 PM
>
> To: NW Mailing List <mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>
> Subject: Re: 1950's N&W Steam excursions
>
>
>
> In Bluefield, my father always called them "M"s. Don't know who called
> them "Mollies," but I am aware of an axiom: if anyone ever puts wrong
> information in print, that is the information that get's quoted (without
> attribution) forever. Which is why I do my best to identify errors, even
> when some people take it personally.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 7:23 AM
> Subject: Re: 1950's N&W Steam excursions
>
>
>
>
> Hey Jim -
>
>
>
> I was around Bristol for the last few years of the small 4-8-0s, and I
> never heard anyone refer to them as Mollies. They were "M"s down there.
> Maybe that term applied elsewhere on the railroad, but the only folks I
> know of that called them "Mollies" were railfans years after they were
> gone . . .
>
>
>
> EdKing
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: NW Mailing List
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 4:03 AM
> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
> Subject: 1950's N&W Steam excursions
>
>
>
> Does anyone have a list of steam excursions operated by N&W in the
> 1950's that show the dates, places and locomotives used?
> I'm currently working on some video with some of these trips but I
> don't know any details of them.
> For instance, I have footage of the following trips:
>
>
>
> A double headed run on the Abingdon branch where part of the train
> looks to be a work extra and part was the regular mixed with a couple
> of rider gondolas attached.
> Actually, the train wasn't a true double header in that the mixed,
> with it's Mollie, is coupled behind the work train which had a
> different Mollie on the point.
>
>
>
> Another excursion with a K1 and also carrying rider gons on the back.
> I think this one went to or from Bristol.
>
>
>
> The doubleheaded excursion from Bluefield to Norton with Pacifics.
>
>
>
> There are possibly others that I will find as I go through this film.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any assistance.
>
>
>
> -Jim Herron
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> _____
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 19:36:47 -0400
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: basic interlocking signals
> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
> Message-ID: <201309102336.r8ANalv25333 at home.krunk.org>
>
>
> Jim Cochran:
>> In the first case (Figure 1) the blue train is eastbound ( to the right)
>> and there is no other traffic. The route is lined for him to hold the
>> main
>> through the interlocking. Are the aspects shown correctly?
>
> Yes.
>
>> If there is a train on the siding as shown in Figure 2, does it have any
>> effect on the signal aspects? My assumption is that it does not. Let me
>> know.
>
> Correct, no change in signal aspects.
>
>
> Joe Shaw
> Christiansburg, VA
> http://www.krunk.org/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 14:55:50 -0700
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: 4-8-0s (WAS: Class M's, Mollies, class names and the like)
> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Message-ID: <24211DC3-D609-4FE7-B99E-697BA094FEC9 at sbcglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I believe that the SP was the other principal user of 4-8-0s in later
> days, not the UP (I don't remember seeing a pic of a UP 4-8-0). They
> ended up on the Oregon branch lines of the SP and lasted til quite late in
> the day. I think that the most popular "type name" for the 4-8-0 was
> "Twelve -Wheeler"; all the SP locos were in the "TW" classes, from the
> days when SP class designations were generally based on prevailing type
> names.
>
> BTW, 4-8-0s were very common on British colonial 42" gauge lines - South
> Africa, Australia, New Zealand, etc. Lots of these are living on in
> preservation.
>
> pete groom
>
> On Sep 10, 2013, at 11:35 AM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Gentlemen:
>>
>> This a great discussion and when Jim added into the mix about the 2-8-2
>> wheel arrangement, I felt it was time to toss my hat into this ring.
>>
>> The various wheel arrangements while somewhat generic named were also
>> given the better known ones for very specific reasons:
>>
>> The 2-8-0's were called Consolidations simply because the first order or
>> large order was from a recent consolidation of railroad companies way
>> back when .. the late 1860's or 1870's or so.
>>
>> The 2-8-2's were called Mikado's because the first order went to the
>> Japanese Mikado I think it was in 1897.
>>
>> The first iconic order for the 4-6-2's went to MoPac, Missouri Pacific
>> which named them Pacific type, I believe around 1904.
>>
>> The what became ever-popular Mountain named 4-8-2 went to the C&O for
>> their mountain divisions in the coalfields and they named it accordingly.
>>
>> As for the 4-8-0's, not many roads had this wheel arrangement, with UP I
>> think and the N&W being the primary users and it received the name
>> Mastodon from who knows -- I've never read that one. They were always
>> Class "M's" as Ed and Jim have reminded us and that probably the nickname
>> Mollie probably got added later by parties now lost to history.
>> The N&W's famous Class J -- what did the N&W call those: Northern or
>> Class J? Same animal but local name. Kind of like trolley -- they were
>> called trams, streetcars (both one and two words), along with a few other
>> things as well as local names as well.
>>
>> Other wheel arrangements had been named similarly to the earlier ones
>> mentioned.
>>
>> Even the little used 2-4-2 type got a name "Columbia" I am told came from
>> its having been displayed at the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago
>> in 1892-1893. Of course this small hauler was quickly over-shadowed by
>> larger power which rapidly eclipsed these little types.
>>
>> The 2-8-4's were named Berkshires as the Boston & Albany I think got the
>> first, those from Lima and their new Super-Power concept which really
>> took off. That was 1923-1925 or thereabouts.
>>
>> The 2-10--0's were called Decapods for their 10 drivers and some specific
>> ones which had been designated or ordered by the Russian Govt and never
>> delivered to the after WW1 Bolshevik's, became Russian Decapods.
>>
>> The 4-8-4's were first ordered by NP and became Northern's for most roads
>> but they did have other names as well, Lackawanna called theirs Poconos,
>> C&O called theirs Greenbriars and a number of others had names for theirs
>> as well. The NC&StL couldn't call theirs after any northern company or
>> name or anything from Yankee land, so theirs became something else more
>> fitting to their Southern traditions.
>>
>> I had never heard of the L&N's "Big Emma's" being called anything other
>> than that but I grew up with David P. Morgan and he called them that and
>> not the M1's as referred within these fine pages so perhaps DPM was a bit
>> guilt of that little change to historical reference.
>>
>> The 4-10-2's were called the SP type as they were the predominate user of
>> that little used wheel arrangement, never minding their 3rd cylinder.
>>
>> The 4-12-2 was similarly called the UP type for the same reason as the
>> SP, only the UP had that one, also with an inside 3rd cylinder.
>>
>> As NYC was the initial order-er for the 4-6-4 type, no surprise what
>> these were named for us romantics -- the Hudson type. Oh, what a shame
>> one of the Central's 4-6-4's was saved for us to ruminate over. However
>> that is for another day.
>>
>> The 4-6-0's I have always seen called "ten-wheel" types.
>>
>> And I suspect the first 2-10-2's went to the AT&SF although can't recall
>> details. The 2-10-4's were an outgrowth of the 2-10-2's as something
>> larger was required for a specific type of work load.
>>
>> One last one -- 2-8-8-4 -- the first order for those went to was it NP or
>> GN which needed this big hauler for out near the Yellowstone region and
>> so with their humongous firebox to burn that stuff they had on their road
>> which wasn't a whole lot better than improvised dirt (aka-lignite), the
>> first of these went there, along with their name. Somewhere I saw a
>> surmising that perhaps these would have been more powerful than the
>> Allegheny or Big Boy's if they had put good grade coal in one, but alas,
>> that answer awaits us all in that great roundhouse in the sky, someday.
>>
>> Bob Cohen
>> ________________________________________
>> NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org
>> To change your subscription go to
>> http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-mailing-list
>> Browse the NW-Mailing-List archives at
>> http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-mailing-list/
>
>
>
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 18:44:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: Re: Engine nicknames - formerly Re: 1950's N&W Steam
excursions
To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Message-ID:
<1378863887.95133.YahooMailNeo at web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Aubrey,
?
I used to vacation in Roanoke with my grandparents from 1956-1969. During that time I would hang around the station and, with permission from Mr. White the Stationmaster, usually would ride the station switcher. During those years I can remember riding with different engineers adding and removing cars from the various passenger trains and?I can remember at least a few of them would say "here comes train 4 with them Redbirds on the front" and things similar to that. I remember other railroaders working the station area calling them Redbirds. I always figured it was a "standard N&W" name for them and not just something railfans bestowed on the gorgeous GP-9s. These guys were calling them that way before I ever saw the railfan or modeling magazines use the term. One of the highlights of my Roanoke Summers was getting a ride?in the cab of the 516/518 duo at they slipped down the west yard area to clear the head end for the switcher to remove some mail cars
and the engineer letting me run her.
?
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
________________________________
From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Engine nicknames - formerly Re: 1950's N&W Steam excursions
Do any of you other old guys remember hearing N&W's passenger Geep's called a nickname during their time on N&W passenger trains?? "Red Birds" was new to me when I started hearing?it and reading it a couple decades ago.
Aubrey Wiley
You are invited to visit these blogs:
VIRGINIAN RAILWAY Heritage Trail: http://virginianrailwayheritagetrail.blogspot.com/
Wiley Railroad Relic Garden:http://junkmanwiley.blogspot.com/
?
?
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 22:07:17 -0400
From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: Re: Class M's, Mollies, class names and the like
To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Message-ID: <BLU405-EAS316D036EDA6F4CB79B40FAC4390 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello,
For what it's worth, a few years ago I met a lady who father was an engineer out of Crewe, Va in the 1930's through the 1950's. And when we began to talk one of the first things she said was, "My daddy ran those Big Maroon and Black 600 class. Of course I new which locomotive she meant. Thought that was a neat conversation.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 10, 2013, at 7:27 PM, "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> There are a couple of items here I want to comment about, but ambition is failing today. Hopefully, tommorrow morning will be better. Bob Cohen mentioned that the nicknames for the 4-8-0 wheel arrangement was not necessarily "Mastodon". He's right. For generations, it was always 12-wheeler, in the same manner that a 4-6-0 was a 10-wheeler. The name Mastodon was used (at least for a long time) for an SP 4-10-0 name El Gobernador. Internet speed of misinformation changed all that. More on that next day hence. Even dedicated rivet-counters (and i-dotters and t-crossers) run out of steam occasionally.
>
> Dave Stephenson
>
>
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 2:35 PM
> Subject: Class M's, Mollies, class names and the like
>
> Gentlemen:
>
> This a great discussion and when Jim added into the mix about the 2-8-2 wheel arrangement, I felt it was time to toss my hat into this ring.
>
> The various wheel arrangements while somewhat generic named were also given the better known ones for very specific reasons:
>
> The 2-8-0's were called Consolidations simply because the first order or large order was from a recent consolidation of railroad companies way back when .. the late 1860's or 1870's or so.
>
> The 2-8-2's were called Mikado's because the first order went to the Japanese Mikado I think it was in 1897.
>
> The first iconic order for the 4-6-2's went to MoPac, Missouri Pacific which named them Pacific type, I believe around 1904.
>
> The what became ever-popular Mountain named 4-8-2 went to the C&O for their mountain divisions in the coalfields and they named it accordingly.
>
> As for the 4-8-0's, not many roads had this wheel arrangement, with UP I think and the N&W being the primary users and it received the name Mastodon from who knows -- I've never read that one. They were always Class "M's" as Ed and Jim have reminded us and that probably the nickname Mollie probably got added later by parties now lost to history.
>
> The N&W's famous Class J -- what did the N&W call those: Northern or Class J? Same animal but local name. Kind of like trolley -- they were called trams, streetcars (both one and two words), along with a few other things as well as local names as well.
>
> Other wheel arrangements had been named similarly to the earlier ones mentioned.
>
> Even the little used 2-4-2 type got a name "Columbia" I am told came from its having been displayed at the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago in 1892-1893. Of course this small hauler was quickly over-shadowed by larger power which rapidly eclipsed these little types.
>
> The 2-8-4's were named Berkshires as the Boston & Albany I think got the first, those from Lima and their new Super-Power concept which really took off. That was 1923-1925 or thereabouts.
>
> The 2-10--0's were called Decapods for their 10 drivers and some specific ones which had been designated or ordered by the Russian Govt and never delivered to the after WW1 Bolshevik's, became Russian Decapods.
>
> The 4-8-4's were first ordered by NP and became Northern's for most roads but they did have other names as well, Lackawanna called theirs Poconos, C&O called theirs Greenbriars and a number of others had names for theirs as well. The NC&StL couldn't call theirs after any northern company or name or anything from Yankee land, so theirs became something else more fitting to their Southern traditions.
>
> I had never heard of the L&N's "Big Emma's" being called anything other than that but I grew up with David P. Morgan and he called them that and not the M1's as referred within these fine pages so perhaps DPM was a bit guilt of that little change to historical reference.
>
> The 4-10-2's were called the SP type as they were the predominate user of that little used wheel arrangement, never minding their 3rd cylinder.
>
> The 4-12-2 was similarly called the UP type for the same reason as the SP, only the UP had that one, also with an inside 3rd cylinder.
>
> As NYC was the initial order-er for the 4-6-4 type, no surprise what these were named for us romantics -- the Hudson type. Oh, what a shame one of the Central's 4-6-4's was saved for us to ruminate over. However that is for another day.
>
> The 4-6-0's I have always seen called "ten-wheel" types.
>
> And I suspect the first 2-10-2's went to the AT&SF although can't recall details. The 2-10-4's were an outgrowth of the 2-10-2's as something larger was required for a specific type of work load.
>
> One last one -- 2-8-8-4 -- the first order for those went to was it NP or GN which needed this big hauler for out near the Yellowstone region and so with their humongous firebox to burn that stuff they had on their road which wasn't a whole lot better than improvised dirt (aka-lignite), the first of these went there, along with their name. Somewhere I saw a surmising that perhaps these would have been more powerful than the Allegheny or Big Boy's if they had put good grade coal in one, but alas, that answer awaits us all in that great roundhouse in the sky, someday.
>
> Bob Cohen
>
> ________________________________________
> NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org
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