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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">David,<br>
<br>
Looks familiar, where is this? The lower rank of the signal
contributes to its aspect, indicating a siding. The siding's speed
restriction could be as low as that of the turnout by Rule 105, or
even lower by Employee Time Table. This is an example of
variations and exceptions that I hedged/weaseled about in my first
reply.<br>
<br>
Grant Carpenter<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:part1.TTEURZDv.dzP1utEM@gmail.com" alt=""
width="599" height="399" class=""><br>
<br>
On 6/24/2025 5:39 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:mailman.3430.1750805502.722595.nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org">
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<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">I'd love to know what is causing that there, a
trailing point spring switch, not having medium approach
medium, .... Idk</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">You can give clear in the nominal case like
this. I only had 3 photos on hand. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">David Baker</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 24, 2025,
3:17 PM NW Mailing List <<a
href="mailto:nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
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style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Jim,<br>
<br>
With apologies, I'll attempt a reply to your original
post with some specifics.<br>
<br>
Diverging indications notify an engine crew of a speed
restriction due to one or more turnouts ahead. By 1951,
anyway, N&W Operating Rule 105 (b) simply stated
that unless otherwise provided, speed is restricted to
25MPH for passenger trains and 15MPH for other trains or
engines when using turnouts or crossovers. As Jimmy
stated, exceptions were noted in ETTs and could vary a
lot, for example, between the Radford and Pocahontas
Divisions.<br>
<br>
So, diverging aspects are applied to signals in both
directions "through" the turnout's slower/secondary
route. BTW, the N&W's CPL version is not included in
the earlier Rule 283 examples below. The three diverging
indications are shown here, starting with the
distant/advance signal indication Approach Diverging:<br>
<br>
<img
src="mailbox:///C:/Users/gc/AppData/Local/Temp/pid-392/ForwardedMessage.eml?number=0&header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=Divergeaspects1.png"
moz-do-not-send="true"> <br>
<img
src="mailbox:///C:/Users/gc/AppData/Local/Temp/pid-392/ForwardedMessage.eml?number=0&header=quotebody&part=1.1.4&filename=DJ8my0jRGBVqhZHq.jpg"
alt="" moz-do-not-send="true"><br>
<br>
This is an eastbound at Vera Jct. on the Cincinnati line
approaching the turnout on the eastbound main from
Columbus, shown in the lower-right corner. I can't
recall specifics as to what other signals are here
(bi-directional? both directions? etc.) in this time
frame and with which aspects.<br>
<br>
So, what's with the term "medium" and the N&W? <br>
<br>
I don't know. I've asked around, and this came up here
on the List several years ago. As of 1951, it appeared
in two contexts within N&W signal rules:<br>
<br>
In the signal indication description of Rule 285 –
Approach, the term "medium speed" appeared: "Proceed
preparing to stop at next signal. Train exceeding medium
speed must at once reduce to that speed." It appeared in
the Operating Rules Definitions as half the max
authorized speed, but not to exceed 30MPH.<br>
<br>
In the name of the three "diverging" indication rules,
"medium" replaced "diverging," e.g., Diverging Clear
became Medium Clear. However, the term "prescribed
speed" was used in the rule descriptions per Rule 105
(b) above – not medium speed.<br>
<br>
Neither usage appeared to have much, if any, direct
relevance, and the ambiguity seemed to be acknowledged
later, because by the 1981 Rule Book, both instances
were deleted. "Medium" was changed back to "Diverging"
for indication names, and the reference to "medium
speed" was removed from the Approach Rule description
and the term was removed from the Rules Definitions. <br>
<br>
Hope this helps, just my take; edits, thoughts and
questions welcome.<br>
<br>
Grant Carpenter<br>
<br>
On 6/19/2025 7:55 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">All signal fans,
<div>I just found this definition/explanation for what
a "diverging" route can be interpreted to be and it
covers the case at Vera:<img
src="mailbox:///C:/Users/gc/AppData/Local/Temp/pid-392/ForwardedMessage.eml?number=0&header=quotebody&part=1.1.3&filename=GqIxLPkdOCHjw84W.png"
alt="" moz-do-not-send="true"></div>
<div>One of these days I hope to understand to signal
a railroad.</div>
<div>Jim Cochran</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 18, 2025
at 8:47 PM NW Mailing List <<a
href="mailto:nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<div dir="auto">
<div>The operating book rules calls out the AAR
rules in my '51 and '45 rule book. That is speed
signaling, although if you look at the rules as
written they do a bad job explaining that. The
only thing that usually drove medium speed was a
diverging route in a turnout.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Is there another facing point
turnout ahead?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">David Baker</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun
18, 2025, 6:44 PM NW Mailing List <<a
href="mailto:nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
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<div dir="ltr">Grant,
<div>Thanks for the reply and great seeing
you at the con as well. Your answer
caused me to dig more deeply into the
history of N&W aspects/indications
and in particular the horizontal arm
over vertical arm aspect that has most
recently been referred to as "diverging
clear". Please refer to the attached
pages from N&W rule books as
reference for what follows.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In 1910 it was called "slower speed
route clear" when used in conjunction
with one high speed route and diverging
routes. Seems clear this was speed
signaling.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In 1915 it was "proceed under
control, being prepared to stop".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In 1930 it was just "proceed". Does
anyone have a copy of the rules between
1915 and 1930? I'd like to know what
that one has to say.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In 1945 it was " proceed through
diverging route at prescribed speed".
This looks like route signaling. Again
if someone has intervening information,
I'd appreciate knowing about it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In 1951 it was " proceed through
turnout route at prescribed speed" which
would seem to indicate route signaling,
but the aspect name is "medium clear"
which point toward speed signaling.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In 1961 it was the same but showed
the option of a colorized aspect.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As far as I know this was maintained
until the end of the N&W. The term
through diverging or turnout route seems
to reinforce my questioning its use
where one line "joins" another. When I
visited Tom Dressler many years ago, he
informed me that going "through" a
turnout was to take the diverging path
while going "over" a turnout meant
staying on the non-diverging route.
Both of these would indicate a facing
points movement and wouldn't seem to be
readily applicable to trailing points
movements.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The NORAC definition of this aspect
is something like proceed at medium
speed until you train clears turnouts or
interlockings and then proceed at
prescribed speed. This would seem
appropriate for such a situation as we
find at Vera, but I have not seen this
kink of definition in any reference for
N&W signaling.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hope there may be more to the story
and would welcome input from anyone who
has experience/knowledge of how N&W
signaling worked and the philosophy used
by the system designers.</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Jim Cochran <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue,
Jun 17, 2025 at 7:47 PM NW Mailing List
<<a
href="mailto:nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
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style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Jim,<br>
<br>
Generally. . .<br>
<br>
Route signaling is speed signaling
by implication. <br>
<br>
So, diverging aspects can indicate a
lower speed through the diverging
route of a turnout, compared to the
adjacent track speed, and regardless
of direction.<br>
<br>
So, diverging aspects will be used
when facing points, and <u>may</u>
be used when trailing points.<br>
<br>
. . . mostly.<br>
<br>
Good to see you and All at the
Convention.<br>
<br>
Grant Carpenter<br>
<br>
On 6/8/2025 10:31 AM, NW Mailing
List wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Attached is a photo
of Vera Jct. showing the signal
facing Peavine traffic. Why would
the "main stem" from Columbus have
been considered a "diverging"
route in this case? Perhaps it is
in some way analogous to middle
sidings being signaled for
diverging aspects where they
rejoin the main. I tend to think
of diverging aspects being
displayed to facing points
movements where they are signaled
to take a route that "diverges"
from the one they are currently
on. Of course there are no
"joining" aspects, so did the term
"diverging" cover the act of
taking a route that your current
route is joining? Any thoughts
will be appreciated.
<div>Jim Cochran</div>
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