[game_preservation] Re: game_preservation Digest, Vol 3, Issue 1
István Fábián
if at caps-project.org
Fri Oct 1 22:48:17 EDT 2004
Yes and no.
They are archiving their own IP which is a good thing (TM), but couldn't
care less about anything else where IP issues involve others'.
----- Original Message -----
From: "martin reimer" <procoprio at gmail.com>
To: <game_preservation at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 4:41 AM
Subject: [game_preservation] Re: game_preservation Digest, Vol 3, Issue 1
I think its interesting to note that Nintendo is really preserving
their own titles. Take for example the NES game rereleased on the Game
Boy Advanced. Yes, its to make money off of easily recognizable
franchises but its still preserving those titles and allowing future
generations to play them.
Martin
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:00:46 -0400 (EDT),
game_preservation-request at igda.org
<game_preservation-request at igda.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: support (n8dunn at juno.com)
> 2. Re: Re: [game_preservation] support (Simon Carless)
> 3. Re: Re: [game_preservation] support (Simon Carless)
> 4. Re: support (n8dunn at juno.com)
> 5. Late Intro to Myself (n8dunn at juno.com)
> 6. Re: support (The CAPS Team)
> 7. another intro (Brandon J. Van Every)
> 8. yet another intro ( Istv?n F?bi?n )
> 9. Re: game_preservation Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6 (Kitsune13k at aol.com)
> 10. Remakes ( Istv?n F?bi?n )
> 11. Re: support ( Istv?n F?bi?n )
> 12. Re: support ( Istv?n F?bi?n )
> 13. Re: support ( Istv?n F?bi?n )
> 14. Re: support ( Istv?n F?bi?n )
> 15. Re: Remakes (n8dunn at juno.com)
> 16. Re: Remakes ( Istv?n F?bi?n )
> 17. Re: Introduction (Sean Gugler)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:24:04 GMT
> From: "n8dunn at juno.com" <n8dunn at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] support
> To: game_preservation at igda.org
> Message-ID: <20040930.112501.4749.228701 at webmail02.nyc.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> >Can we;
> >
> >a) capture a screen of a legally owned game and then use that image
> >for
> > i) personal use only
> > ii) instruction / education in a classroom
> > iii) education through a collection or museum available to the
> >general public for free.
>
> I'm also not a lawyer, but I believe that the copyright laws allow use of
copyrighted materials for education. Whether that only applies to the
classroom, or if it could extend to a museum collection, I'm not sure. As
far as personal use, you may be breaking a copyright law, but who's going to
find out, or care? For example, if you wanted to take a screen from your
favorite game and use it as your wallpaper, I think that would be fine,
unless some FBI agent with an agenda happens to see it, no one would care. I
think in general, since the archival process could be seen as education,
that even full software could be backed up, though access to it would have
to be non-copyable. For instance, set up a building which the public could
visit, and have various computer stations set up which have old games on
them. Though it's public exhibition, it's education, and may pass. As for
posting old games on a website, that probably wouldn't be OK unless
permission was given by the copyrig
> ht holder, since people can download and distribute the software. I would
say that the same would go for old code.
> Again, I'm not a lawyer, and everything I just wrote is based on my
limited knowledge of the copyright laws, so feel free to disagree with me
and correct my thinking. :-D
>
> Cheers,
> Nate
>
> Nathan Dunn
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Graduate 2004 Full Sail Real World Education Game Design and Development
Degree Program
> http://www.geocities.com/n8dunn/Resume.doc
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Get your name as your email address.
> Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more
> Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:38:21 -0700
> From: "Simon Carless" <simon at archive.org>
> Subject: Re: Re: [game_preservation] support
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG <game_preservation at igda.org>, ""
> <game_preservation at igda.org>,
> Message-ID: <20040930183821.16397.qmail at station180.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> n8dunn wrote:
>
> >I think in general, since the archival process could be seen as
education, that even full software could be backed up, >though access to it
would have to be non-copyable. For instance, set up a building which the
public could visit, and have >various computer stations set up which have
old games on them. Though it's public exhibition, it's education, and may
>pass.
>
> With the DMCA exemption, if you're an 'official' library or archive, this
is indeed _currently_ true, as I understand it (IANAL! This is not a
definitive statement!) for obsolete videogames in the U.S. However, it's
only true for obsolete games, if you're breaking access protection to back
stuff up.
>
> >As for posting old games on a website, that probably wouldn't be OK
unless permission was given by the copyright >holder, since people can
download and distribute the software. I would say that the same would go for
old code.
>
> This is also correct. You can only post stuff that game companies are
broadly happy with you posting, such as in-game movies (which they seem to
be fine with for promotional/non-profit purposes) and also things governed
by fair use - limited information about games to make MobyGames-style
databases and suchlike.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Simon.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:38:21 -0700
> From: "Simon Carless" <simon at archive.org>
> Subject: Re: Re: [game_preservation] support
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG <game_preservation at igda.org>, ""
> <game_preservation at igda.org>,
> Message-ID: <20040930183821.16397.qmail at station180.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> n8dunn wrote:
>
> >I think in general, since the archival process could be seen as
education, that even full software could be backed up, >though access to it
would have to be non-copyable. For instance, set up a building which the
public could visit, and have >various computer stations set up which have
old games on them. Though it's public exhibition, it's education, and may
>pass.
>
> With the DMCA exemption, if you're an 'official' library or archive, this
is indeed _currently_ true, as I understand it (IANAL! This is not a
definitive statement!) for obsolete videogames in the U.S. However, it's
only true for obsolete games, if you're breaking access protection to back
stuff up.
>
> >As for posting old games on a website, that probably wouldn't be OK
unless permission was given by the copyright >holder, since people can
download and distribute the software. I would say that the same would go for
old code.
>
> This is also correct. You can only post stuff that game companies are
broadly happy with you posting, such as in-game movies (which they seem to
be fine with for promotional/non-profit purposes) and also things governed
by fair use - limited information about games to make MobyGames-style
databases and suchlike.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Simon.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:47:43 GMT
> From: "n8dunn at juno.com" <n8dunn at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] support
> To: game_preservation at igda.org
> Message-ID: <20040930.114806.4749.228785 at webmail02.nyc.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Heh, with all this "IANAL" and speculation, we really should have someone
who IS a lawyer posting to this.
> Anyway, what exactly is an obsolete game? One that isn't designed for a
"current" platform? I know that I still enjoy older games, even if I do need
to smack my Nintendo around in order to play them. Also, what about games
that are remade in a different format, such as java or flash? Could some
sort of project be put together to convert "obsolete" games into
web-playable formats, or something similar? Again, just throwing out ideas
here. :-D
>
> Nathan Dunn
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Graduate 2004 Full Sail Real World Education Game Design and Development
Degree Program
> http://www.geocities.com/n8dunn/Resume.doc
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Get your name as your email address.
> Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more
> Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:49:14 GMT
> From: "n8dunn at juno.com" <n8dunn at juno.com>
> Subject: [game_preservation] Late Intro to Myself
> To: game_preservation at igda.org
> Message-ID: <20040930.134914.512.654508 at webmail28.nyc.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> I just went back and read the archives of the posts, and realized that
Simon was the only one who introduced himself, so in the interest of getting
more people to do the same, I will follow his lead.
>
> My name is Nate Dunn, and I am new to the industry, having just graduated
from Full Sail in Orlando, FL, where I worked on quite a few demo projects.
Since then I have been trying to actually get a job, which, as I'm sure many
of you know, is an imposing task.
>
> As for why I'm interested in game preservation, I think that it's
extremely important that people today and in the future are able to enjoy
games that are amazing, and yet never really got much recognition since they
were made in a time when games were taken less seriously than they are today
(not that they are taken all that seriously even now, but they're getting
there). Some games that come immediately to mind are Pirates! and the old
Scott Adams adventures, which I spent many, many hours playing over and over
again when I was younger. I feel that games that we loved deserve to be
preserved and possibly even remade so that they can be enjoyed and revered
for years to come. It's also important to save these games because they are
our history. As any grade-school history teacher will tell you, it is
extremely important to preserve history, and to learn from it. If we
continue to create games, only to lose them to time and obsoletity (is that
a word?), we will forever just be
> rehashing the same ideas over and over with newer, "better" technology,
and no real progress will ever be made. If instead we could hold on to the
past, and expand upon it, we could end up seeing extremely realistic
simulations which completely immerse the user (which some people may see as
a bad thing, since there would be no seperation of reality and simulation,
and could cause quite a bit of madness and social destruction, but that's an
entirely different topic). The third point that I would like to make is that
the older generations (age 50+) have a hard time playing games which are
fully 3D. There is a lot of disorientation and motion sickness involved,
which eliminates the majority of newer games being made. In order to get
this group of people involved in what we do, we need to at the very least
preserve the games of the past, which are easier to play, or produce new
ones which are similar. Since most publishers would rather not market to the
small group of game play
> ers who want games like Pac-man and Pong, the best option is to keep them
around for that group to enjoy. A perfect example of this would be my
father, who has a hard time even watching me play an FPS, yet will sit for
hours and play a solitare or 2D puzzle game on yahoo. This indicates that
the desire is there, but the physical means isn't.
>
> I hope all that made sense, and maybe sparks some discussion.
> Take care.
> Nate.
>
> Nathan Dunn
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Graduate 2004 Full Sail Real World Education Game Design and Development
Degree Program
> http://www.geocities.com/n8dunn/Resume.doc
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Get your name as your email address.
> Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more
> Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:41:33 +0100
> From: The CAPS Team <caps at caps-project.org>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] support
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <415C8B9D.4060108 at caps-project.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> n8dunn at juno.com wrote:
>
> >about games that are remade in a different format, such as java or
> >flash? Could some sort of project be put together to convert "obsolete"
> >games into web-playable formats, or something similar? Again, just
> >throwing out ideas here. :-D
>
> As far as converting games is concerned, there is an interesting (though
> a bit naive in places IMHO) paper done on exactly this - emulation vs.
> migration. They try a small field test using an emulated copy and a
> converted copy of the game Chuckie Egg.
>
> See here: http://www.rlg.org/preserv/diginews/diginews5-6.html
>
> Personally, from a historical perspective, I think having the original
> work it its original form is the most important, especially since
> emulation of the respective systems has been maturing for a number of
> years now for many systems.
>
> --
> Kieron Wilkinson
> The CAPS Team
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:57:12 -0700
> From: "Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery at indiegamedesign.com>
> Subject: [game_preservation] another intro
> To: <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID:
> <OOEALCJCKEBJBIJHCNJDGEHMHJAB.vanevery at indiegamedesign.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi, I'm Brandon Van Every. Struggling 4X TBS game designer. Dot.com
> casualty. Voter registrar / signature gatherer by day. Technology
> pundit by night... or is it day? Good with a fist, stick, or foot.
> Also pen, pencil, and brush. But not yet tablet, or website. Decent
> with word. Sharp with debate. Seasonal IGF judge (2005 Round 1 started
> today!) Erstwhile comp.games.development.* abuser, now a recluse.
> Lightly loaded co-moderator of
> http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/gamedesign-l/. Nebula Device 3D
> engine advocate. http://nebuladevice.cubik.org. Thorn in the side of
> multiple open source communities that don't care about Windows,
> marketing, or commercial game development. Foolish learner. Adept at
> avoiding code, and signature gathering, in favor of strategic planning.
> :-)
>
> Somehow I feel I should add 'Hobbit slayer, bridge porker' to the above
> list. But it wouldn't be remotely true. Let's just say I watched The
> Lord Of The Rings one too many times, in various guises, to alleviate
> project stress. And I love "Miyazaki's Spirited Away."
>
> Aside from sentiments Nathan expressed, I have megalomanical ambitions
> to archive my own would-be games for thousands of years. You think I'm
> kidding. The PC industry is disposable and that sucks. Come the
> digital age, film doesn't have nearly this difficulty. I hope that
> within 30 years' time, a mathematically rigorous notion of 'Permanent
> Computing' is possible. Right now, gotta work with what we've got, and
> what we've had.
>
> Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
> Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
>
> "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
> - anonymous entrepreneur
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:33:59 +0200
> From: " Istv?n F?bi?n " <if at caps-project.org>
> Subject: [game_preservation] yet another intro
> To: <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <00f901c4a745$fd782cf0$0301a8c0 at if>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> It's my turn I guess:
>
> http://wizards-of-os.org/index.php?id=1573
>
> In addition to that still looking for getting back into games, telecom is
> way too boring even if you are in the top management...
> The complete technology behind our project is my child, but I guess most
of
> you know that.
>
> Cheers,
> István
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:59:52 EDT
> From: Kitsune13k at aol.com
> Subject: [game_preservation] Re: game_preservation Digest, Vol 2,
> Issue 6
> To: game_preservation at igda.org
> Message-ID: <11.34caa069.2e8df7f8 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I belive that you can use game content and screen views as long as you
tell
> what game it is and kinda promote it in some way....since we are trying to
> perserve the game, I believe that we should have no problem. I mean sites
promting
> new games have downloadable screenviews.... I even have some examples on
my
> computer, if you would like me to send them to you or give you the website
that
> they were on. Thus, personial use should be fine, although giveing free
> copies away may require permission from the game developer or manufacture.
> I hope that what I have stated has helped.
>
> Sincerly Kara Bennett
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 02:16:48 +0200
> From: " Istv?n F?bi?n " <if at caps-project.org>
> Subject: [game_preservation] Remakes
> To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <006801c4a74b$fd3f8200$0301a8c0 at if>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Can't find the mail, but someone asked about remakes.
>
> We are talking of 5,000 commercial titles on the Amiga platform only,
> estimated 50+k titles in total depending on platforms and focus.
> Remakes are fun, but in no way a substitute for the real thing, especially
> as technology now permits replicating/emulating most of the original,
> contemporary titles without modification regarding content including code,
> graphics and sound.
>
> Preservation of the social as well as digital artifacts of the era are
both
> important.
> We at SPS (CAPS) have the technology, and many people including Simon or
> Henry work on the social and legal issues surrounding digital artifacts,
> libraries and other projects.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 02:24:08 +0200
> From: " Istv?n F?bi?n " <if at caps-project.org>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] support
> To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <00fb01c4a74d$045b28e0$0301a8c0 at if>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> > I think that because we are talking about preservation (essentially for
> reference and
> > archival purposes) it is safe to say that no laws are being violated,
> provided the
> > work being archived was obtained legally.
> >
> > Andrew Sispoidis
> > Partner
> > inGamePartners, LLC.
> >
>
> Correct, as long as you don't make it publicly accessible.
> István
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 02:41:37 +0200
> From: " Istv?n F?bi?n " <if at caps-project.org>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] support
> To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <011a01c4a74f$6f2076b0$0301a8c0 at if>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Most contractual publishing work has expiration clauses, so the rights are
> reverted back to the original authors after a period of time, or in case
of
> inactivity of the publisher regarding the title, bankruptcy etc.
> So the contract works we talk here quite often legally belong to their
> authors now, not their publisher - even if some of them actually permits
the
> use of their old game. It is like letting people use your old car, that
you
> sold years ago... as long as you can find it and nick it without the
current
> owner noticing.
>
> The situation with in-house work is much more complex. Most of the
original
> copyright holders, the companies producing the title went bankrupt (some
> even just recently like Acclaim), merged with others (like EA buying out
> everything, or ((Ocean->Infogrames) & (Atari->Hasbro))->Atari now) and so
> on.
> These companies have assets: Intellectual Property and Licenses are
usually
> important factors. Many of them are know belonging to banks and other
> shareholders of the company assets.
> When it comes to licensing it is also important to consider the original
> terms of the licensor and the licensee, which again often held by
different
> companies.
>
> What people do, and what is legal are two different things.
> Obviously laws are often way behind everyday usage especially regarding
the
> ultra fast technology obsolence in the software/games industry and the
> business viability of obsolete products.
> Regardless, the products belong to their respective owners and people
> working on preservation are working for the industry and as part of the
> industry, for everyone's benefit. As such laws and keeping the laws is in
> the best interest of all parties.
>
> István
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery at indiegamedesign.com>
> To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:41 PM
> Subject: RE: [game_preservation] support
>
> > Allen R Partridge wrote:
> > >
> > > Anybody got any clues on what
> > > if any sort of waivers / permissions we need to move ahead gathering
> > > images / sounds / what about code?
> >
> > IANAL, but I could swear that the USA's Digital Millenium Copyright Act
> > had something in it about being able to emulate or archive works whose
> > playback machines are now defunct, meaning they're not manufactured
> > anymore or not generally available or whatnot. Some Googling would
> > probably reveal it, I'm too lazy at 5:30 AM to do so. :-)
> >
> > Also remember that if there's no company around anymore to sue you, it
> > doesn't matter if you offend. Just be sure of whether the rights have
> > reverted back to some original author though. Even then though,
> > consider who can catch up to you in practice. Hey, I'm only telling it
> > like the son of a former corporate lawyer. :-) It's not just what the
> > law is, it's what people can do.
> >
> >
> > Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
> > Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
> >
> > 20% of the world is real.
> > 80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > game_preservation mailing list
> > game_preservation at igda.org
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 02:47:01 +0200
> From: " Istv?n F?bi?n " <if at caps-project.org>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] support
> To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <014401c4a750$3e622c20$0301a8c0 at if>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> In the US the DMCA exemption is your answer - at least for the next 2
years
> to come. Research and preservation is fair use. You can do these things
> apart from commercial usage for that you must have the permission of the
> copyright holder.
> You must observe your local laws about fair use, education should be
> involved, but better check.
> Regardless it is good practice to have a good relationship with the
> companies involved.
>
> István
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Allen R Partridge" <allen.partridge at iup.edu>
> To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>;
> <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] support
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Does anyone know the the legal position here regarding use of a screen
> > capture or captured movie clip of game play. I believe that there is
> > a point at which something like the Warhol Campbells Soup effect
> > happens that redefines / repurposes the work -- In the same way that
> > sampling might be used in music.
> >
> > Can we;
> >
> > a) capture a screen of a legally owned game and then use that image
> > for
> > i) personal use only
> > ii) instruction / education in a classroom
> > iii) education through a collection or museum available to the
> > general public for free.
> > iv) the same as item 3 but charge for use.
> > v) commercial use in other applications, videos or texts
> >
> > It seems clear that the answer to at least number 5 is no, but is it
> > really or is that just an assumption? Anybody got any clues on what
> > if any sort of waivers / permissions we need to move ahead gathering
> > images / sounds / what about code?
> >
> > -- Al
> >
> > Dr. Allen Partridge, Director
> > Applied Media and Simulation Games Center
> > Indiana University of Pennsylvania
> >
> > 724.357.3781
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:22:47 -0400
> > martin reimer <procoprio at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >All,
> > >
> > >Is there anything that I can do to support the preservation cause?
> > >Email game developers for permission to use video and art assets,
> > >make
> > >legal backups of older games, scan game manuals? If you have a guide
> > >or any FAQs please let me know.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:01:01 -0400 (EDT),
> > >game_preservation-request at igda.org
> > ><game_preservation-request at igda.org> wrote:
> > >> Send game_preservation mailing list submissions to
> > >> game_preservation at igda.org
> > >>
> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > >> game_preservation-request at igda.org
> > >>
> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> > >> game_preservation-owner at igda.org
> > >>
> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > >> than "Re: Contents of game_preservation digest..."
> > >>
> > >> Today's Topics:
> > >>
> > >> 1. Re: game_preservation Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4-how can i
> > >>help?
> > >> (Kitsune13k at aol.com)
> > >>
> >
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 1
> > >> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:31:37 EDT
> > >> From: Kitsune13k at aol.com
> > >> Subject: [game_preservation] Re: game_preservation Digest, Vol 2,
> > >> Issue 4-how can i help?
> > >> To: game_preservation at igda.org
> > >> Message-ID: <15.33e6f505.2e8b8699 at aol.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >>
> > >> Hello. I would love to further help the cause. I was wondering is
> > >>there
> > >> anything that is going on in the Plam Beach County area of florida?
> > >> -------------- next part --------------
> > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > >> URL:
> >
>
>>http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20040928/f
> b25a6be/attachment-0001.html
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> game_preservation mailing list
> > >> game_preservation at igda.org
> > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> > >>
> > >> End of game_preservation Digest, Vol 2, Issue 5
> > >> ***********************************************
> > >>
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >game_preservation mailing list
> > >game_preservation at igda.org
> > >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > game_preservation mailing list
> > game_preservation at igda.org
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 02:53:34 +0200
> From: " Istv?n F?bi?n " <if at caps-project.org>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] support
> To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <017c01c4a751$1ac31a80$0301a8c0 at if>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> One example, contribute to:
> www.caps-project.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "martin reimer" <procoprio at gmail.com>
> To: <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 5:22 AM
> Subject: [game_preservation] support
>
> > All,
> >
> > Is there anything that I can do to support the preservation cause?
> > Email game developers for permission to use video and art assets, make
> > legal backups of older games, scan game manuals? If you have a guide
> > or any FAQs please let me know.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:01:01 -0400 (EDT),
> > game_preservation-request at igda.org
> > <game_preservation-request at igda.org> wrote:
> > > Send game_preservation mailing list submissions to
> > > game_preservation at igda.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > game_preservation-request at igda.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > game_preservation-owner at igda.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of game_preservation digest..."
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: game_preservation Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4-how can i
help?
> > > (Kitsune13k at aol.com)
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:31:37 EDT
> > > From: Kitsune13k at aol.com
> > > Subject: [game_preservation] Re: game_preservation Digest, Vol 2,
> > > Issue 4-how can i help?
> > > To: game_preservation at igda.org
> > > Message-ID: <15.33e6f505.2e8b8699 at aol.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Hello. I would love to further help the cause. I was wondering is
there
> > > anything that is going on in the Plam Beach County area of florida?
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
>
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20040928/fb25a6be/attachment-0001.html
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > game_preservation mailing list
> > > game_preservation at igda.org
> > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> > >
> > > End of game_preservation Digest, Vol 2, Issue 5
> > > ***********************************************
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > game_preservation mailing list
> > game_preservation at igda.org
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 02:26:11 GMT
> From: "n8dunn at juno.com" <n8dunn at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Remakes
> To: game_preservation at igda.org
> Message-ID: <20040930.192631.10145.224097 at webmail07.nyc.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Wow Istvan, you are full of knowledge :) (no sarcasm intended, btw).
> I was the one who asked about remakes, and did so only as idle curiousity.
I agree that preserving the original work is much, much better, I was just
throwing out a possible idea as to HOW to preserve it. Probably the best
idea, as far as staying legal is concerned, is to start finding out who owns
what, get ahold of them, and get some nice written permission. I have a
feeling most of the responses would be "you want to what!? uh... sure, go
ahead.... loony." or something similar. The process could (will) take a LOT
of time, but it would probably be worth it in the long run. Of course, if
the laws allow us to just archive classic (read: obsolete) games without
permission, then might as well go ahead and do that too. I think it comes
down to whether the archive would be publicly accessable. I would say that
it really should, otherwise the point of doing it is modified.
> Bah, law... my mind is fried from thinking about it, watching the
debates... I'm going to go take a nap, or blast something, or whatever. :-D
>
> later,
>
> Nathan Dunn
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Graduate 2004 Full Sail Real World Education Game Design and Development
Degree Program
> http://www.geocities.com/n8dunn/Resume.doc
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Get your name as your email address.
> Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more
> Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 04:59:16 +0200
> From: " Istv?n F?bi?n " <if at caps-project.org>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Remakes
> To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <087e01c4a762$a88d4280$0301a8c0 at if>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> NP, I take this as a compliment :)
> "How" is not really a problem anymore, strictly speaking of technical
issues
> and our project regarding floppy disc media. We can go for the original
art
> so we do it, before it's too late. Home computer games that we are talking
> about - at SPS/CAPS - are originally on copy-protected floppy disks, and
> their life-span is soon to end. We have proof that many of the FD disks
from
> 1985 are no longer readable and of course later disks are developing
errors
> as we speak right now.
>
> Yes, some companies would say what you think however you'd be much
surprised
> on others, but consider a license like Tomb Raider: the original authors
> from Core Design - or Core Design in fact - are long gone, but it is still
a
> valuable license - despite the second movie ;)
> Or take a look at Nintendo franchise, Mario, Donkey Kong etc is admittedly
> the only IP they really hold onto, as the are the only products that can
> sell yet another console system from them, otherwise doomed to be DoA just
> like GCN.
> So IP, likenesses, franchise and other related assets are valuable to many
> of their ownersand understandably so.
>
> You don't have to go very far, although I am making my IP freely
accessible
> I do reserve all the copyright since it has commercial value.
>
> Thee are other issues of course just like making the archives accessible,
> creating digital libraries of video games of the past, education, fair
use,
> research and so on.
>
> Also another big issue (for us that is) is funding, this is pretty much a
> full time job, not to mention getting some of the older titles are
> increasingly difficult and more and more expensive - these we support from
> our own pockets, but this can't go on forever. If we take into account the
> amount of time devoted to our project with average salaries (not even IT
> ones...) we are speaking in six/seven digit figures, but we have five
digit
> ones even on just purchasing titles.
> Many of the developments we wanted to do, but couldn't is simply a
financial
> decision, and due to lack of funds and hence resources and time.
> So here is the financial issue, that is the only "technical" issue that
our
> project faces.
>
> István
> ps: more details and faqs on:
> www.caps-project.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <n8dunn at juno.com>
> To: <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Remakes
>
> >
> > Wow Istvan, you are full of knowledge :) (no sarcasm intended, btw).
> > I was the one who asked about remakes, and did so only as idle
curiousity.
> I agree that preserving the original work is much, much better, I was just
> throwing out a possible idea as to HOW to preserve it. Probably the best
> idea, as far as staying legal is concerned, is to start finding out who
owns
> what, get ahold of them, and get some nice written permission. I have a
> feeling most of the responses would be "you want to what!? uh... sure, go
> ahead.... loony." or something similar. The process could (will) take a
LOT
> of time, but it would probably be worth it in the long run. Of course, if
> the laws allow us to just archive classic (read: obsolete) games without
> permission, then might as well go ahead and do that too. I think it comes
> down to whether the archive would be publicly accessable. I would say that
> it really should, otherwise the point of doing it is modified.
> > Bah, law... my mind is fried from thinking about it, watching the
> debates... I'm going to go take a nap, or blast something, or whatever.
:-D
> >
> > later,
> >
> > Nathan Dunn
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > Graduate 2004 Full Sail Real World Education Game Design and Development
> Degree Program
> > http://www.geocities.com/n8dunn/Resume.doc
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Get your name as your email address.
> > Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more
> > Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today!
> > _______________________________________________
> > game_preservation mailing list
> > game_preservation at igda.org
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:51:20 -0700
> From: Sean Gugler <gugler-sean at cs.yale.edu>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Introduction
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <415D0C78.8060604 at cs.yale.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I am:
> Sean Gugler,
> + programmer actively employed in the video game industry
> + attendee at some of the preservation sessions held at GDC
> over the last three years
> + attendee at the California Extreme exhibition of preserved
> arcade games for the last four years
> + minor contributor to MAME in its early days (CAPSlock LEDs)
> + author of the Windows port of ADT (Apple Disk Transfer) which
> enables storing Apple II disk images in PC files, via serial
> cable
>
> My *interest* in preservation extends to all aspects. All of them.
> I'm a packrat by nature.
>
> My potential for *contribution* covers:
>
> 1) Technology for Apple II and possibly Commodore 64 data
> preservation. For future expansion of ADT, I've analyzed
> the Apple II Disk controller firmware very deeply in
> preparation for a someday-release that will handle nibble
> and quarter-track images, which should cover the bulk of
> copy protection. Don't know how prevalent spiral-tracking
> was; a few special-case preservations may be called for.
>
> 2) Insider advocate for the importance of preserving non-published
> aspects of development. Having libraries of finished product is
> likely attainable by plenty of others; but no library can reconstruct
> design notes and sketches that are lost, or interviews that are never
> conducted.
>
> 3) Desire to see materials discarded by game companies kept from
> trash bins on the chance they may some day prove culturally useful,
> perhaps after some statute of limitations expires.
>
> Cheese,
> - Sean
> --
> Dispel guilt and apology; change or justify.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> End of game_preservation Digest, Vol 3, Issue 1
> ***********************************************
>
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