[game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project

[Devin Monnens]

Actually, I think my biggest area of interest would be 'which things did you
id say you explicitly needed permission for' (i.e. what did their lawyers
say was covered under their copyright)? That might be useful if they say
that game footage and screenshots are covered. Obviously, you have
permission, but there should be a list of things you explicitly needed
permission for, right?

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:


> Henry,

> Do you have a list of all (?) versions of the DOOM game that were released?

> This would include ports too I suppose. Actually, I'm kind of surprised

> there isn't an article on DOOM in HG101 - that sounds like a perfect series

> to cover.

>

> Also, I hope you're going to publish a paper on this as a case study for

> game preservation! Remember, I'll be hosting a panel on it in Albuquerque in

> February. If we get enough people, it's possible we could do two sections.

>

> -Devin

>

>

> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>

>>  Cool answers ^_^

>>

>> The robots.txt restrictions are a shame :( I wonder what the tool can do

>> to maybe just simply bypass that (I tried the archive's crawler before, I

>> think it has the option to bypass it - but I never tried it much due to the

>> way it worked in the end) - recording something that is available and does

>> download (after all, you don't get that kind of thing from something like

>> putting a book in a repository/library, heh), but perhaps the key would be

>> to not putting it online visibly ie; only on the Stanford servers in this

>> case, but accessible to researchers if needed. You're right it is pretty

>> arbitary when such robots.txt files are applied though (game fan sites? huh?

>> :/ ). Ethically, I don't see a problem keeping offline or generally

>> inaccessible online copies of a page or site content if it was publicly

>> accessible in the first place, but I don't know about legal issues perhaps.

>> I presume archives haven't been sued over keeping offline/dark copies or

>> screenshots of downloaded web pages before.

>>

>> For the dates of things, I just was curious. I guess if it's not mandatory

>> for the bag system to have any of this in the first place, then I guess

>> there's little point :) I think the Archive-It tool adds some as comments on

>> the page source anyway. It's mainly a good thing for dynamic pages - wiki's

>> (notorious Wikipedia deleting content arbitrarily for instance) new feeds,

>> etc. where no date might be visible, and digital copies of items like the

>> games themselves - but you have dates there :)

>>

>> The copyright was just a legal thing yeah. I guess one option is always to

>> scan/photograph the manuals, box art or whatever else will go in a

>> repository but sometimes, for that, you need to have the original item or

>> permission from someone who owns it, and some items are a lot rarer then

>> others (especially if you go for multiple languages). If you get permission

>> from the owner of the IP, no problemo I guess! They probably have access to

>> digital copies of such material even if there were not ones available

>> online. :)

>>

>> Thanks for explaining a little about the manifest system too. I presume

>> the Bag-It system is entirely digital based, and that it is going to be

>> digitally archived specially. It'd be great to hear more when you've

>> finished it :)

>>

>> Andrew

>>

>> Henry Lowood wrote:

>>

>> Andrew,

>>

>> 1. On the books.  There are plenty of books on DOOM level editing and

>> programming.  Trust me -- I still have a nice vertical pile of them on the

>> floor of my office at home.  I won't say how high ...

>>

>> 2. On the web links. We do have local copies for the sites we crawled as

>> part of our site.  If you look closely and know how Archive-It builds its

>> links, you can tell which are normal crawls and which are ours.   I would

>> say it's about 50-50.

>>

>> 3. Also on the links, the reason for the live links is robots.txt blocks

>> on crawls.  Classic Doom, for example. I have no idea why.  Some day when I

>> have time, I will write to them and ask them to open it up.  Yes, whenever

>> possible, I would point to an Archive-It or Wayback Machine crawled version.

>>

>> 4. Dates in the manifest. Actually, the manifest is not even required for

>> the Bag (we are using Bag-It for the file transfers).  Our guru in all

>> things metadata/schemes is Jerome McDonough, who is on the list, and he puts

>> a ton of effort into mapping relationships and all that.  My perspective as

>> a curator here in the archivist role is that some sort of human-readable

>> manifest belonged in the bag, so I just put it there.   It is not typical to

>> do so, as far as I know.   I thought about dates, but this leads to another

>> issue, which is that these documents as standing alone here are really out

>> of context.  So, my feeling is that if there is a date on the document, that

>> should suffice.   A propos, keep in mind that the documents here that are

>> not actually DOOM are included as "context" for DOOM.  Again, it's not a

>> research project or even a collection, really.  After the bags are delivered

>> to the digital repository, we have the option of presenting the material in

>> a different way.

>>

>> 5. In the last question, did you mean a problem as in a legal problem?

>> We asked id for permission to do this, and we got it.

>>

>> 6.  Thanks for catching the error.

>>

>> Henry

>>

>>

>>

>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:

>>

>> Yeah, I was joking about the wiki, it's your document, hehe - you said you

>> have a wiki ;) perfect application unless you've got a good relational

>> database for processing entries like that :)

>>

>> I've got no documents myself on doom level editing - I dabbled a little in

>> it but that was, wow, years ago now, sorry. I'll leave it to someone else to

>> know of a good one, I am sure someone else on this list would have a clue. I

>> wonder if any of the DOOM books are related to level editing directly. There

>> I know there is a few on just DOOM itself - I still need to read Masters of

>> Doom, going to borrow it off a friend sometime (who ranted it was a great

>> book himself, popular one that :) hehe).

>>

>> A few things if you want more comments - for the web links, perhaps there

>> should be secondary links to Archive-It copies of the resources linked to

>> directly (unless the implication is you have local copies downloaded of

>> them) - most of them are Archive-It or Wayback but a few are just direct

>> links at least (classic doom links, some mobygames, planetdoom...). It seems

>> more a mistake not having them - thus I guess it's a standard practice to

>> get an Archive-It copy to add it to a manifest?

>>

>> Another thing is dates. Is it worth in a manifest listing the dates items

>> were either created or posted, or when they were looked at on the internet?

>> Most do have wayback implicit dates mind you, and in a list that might not

>> be appropriate I guess :)

>>

>> Finally - I just wondered, probably slightly related, but I guess there is

>> no cause for concern having items like the DOOM manual basically in a

>> manifest - ie; I presume a user-scanned copy of it (or maybe off the CD

>> versions?). For other games, links to unofficial translations for ROM files,

>> or emulation programs necessary to run something, etc. always might need to

>> be added, no problems there I hope - I've no idea what the range of things

>> the manifest should have in it is of course, or what reasons there might be

>> to not add anything (apart from the obvious "you can't fit everything in,

>> and not everything is of the same importance").

>>

>> I also did thoroughly re-read it just now - you've got an error for

>> "MobyGames entry  for Ultimate DOOM" copies the link from the above entry.

>>

>> Andrew

>>

>> Henry Lowood wrote:

>>

>> Andrew,

>>

>> I think you were kidding, but just in case: Please don't put it on the

>> wiki.  It's a draft for comments.   When all is said and done, we'll have

>> all the documentation up on our project wiki, at which point it will be

>> available for all sorts of pointing and clicking.

>>

>> On maps/levels in the manifest (at that time, the terms were in flux).

>> Since this version, the one document I have added is Forsman & Kremeier's

>> classic piece on BSP and DOOM rendering, plus there is the Q&A on editing.

>> But you're right, a tutorial on map/level design would be nice.  If anyone

>> wants to suggest a good document on that topic, I'll consider including it.

>>

>> Another point is that there is a fair-sized library of printed books on

>> that subject, which we can hope will still be available 100 years from now.

>>

>> Henry

>>

>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:

>>

>> Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but sometimes, well,

>> things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft format it is, mind you). It's

>> pretty basic text though, hooray :D I'm tempted to put it on the wiki :)

>>

>> I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think of except I

>> guess technical documentation and tutorials for how to build levels for the

>> game are kind of missing (so both technical documentation on the game, and

>> how to build things for the game). Not needed for getting to know the game

>> though.

>>

>> A very good example, certainly since it contains everything that would be

>> needed to literally install and play the game, with some good important

>> background pieces too.

>>

>> Andrew

>>

>> Devin Monnens wrote:

>>

>> The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I still refuse to

>> save anything in that format. This format shift has caused nothing but

>> troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly 'better' than the old

>> version. I have enough trouble trying to teach students how to use the new

>> Office without having to describe to them how to 'save as' a document (yes,

>> this is rocket science to them).

>>  -Devin

>>

>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>>

>>>

>>> Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:

>>>

>>>

>>> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en

>>>

>>> - Alan

>>>

>>> ________________________________

>>> > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100

>>> > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org

>>> > To: game_preservation at igda.org

>>> > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project

>>> >

>>> > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's DOCX, and

>>> > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can anyone

>>> > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.

>>> >

>>> > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation practices, let's

>>> > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).

>>> >

>>> > Andrew

>>>

>>>

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>>

>>

>>

>> --

>> Devin Monnens

>> www.deserthat.com

>>

>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

>>

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>>

>> --

>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.

>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;

>>  Film & Media Collections

>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall

>> Stanford University Libraries

>> Stanford CA 94305-6004

>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>

>>

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>> _______________________________________________

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>>

>>

>> --

>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.

>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;

>>  Film & Media Collections

>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall

>> Stanford University Libraries

>> Stanford CA 94305-6004

>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>

>>

>> ------------------------------

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> game_preservation mailing list

>> game_preservation at igda.org

>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>

>>

>

>

> --

> Devin Monnens

> www.deserthat.com

>

> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

>




-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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