[game_preservation] Game Database question

[Jim Leonard]

On 3/14/2010 6:33 PM, Jan Baart wrote:

> thanks for your reply. First let me say that this was in no way meant as

> a stab at mobygames.


I know :-)  No worries.


> Despite what you say

> there actually were separate EGA and VGA releases. I own both in their

> original boxed version, my VGA copy comes only on 5.25 disks, the EGA

> copy has 5.25 and 3.5 disks. Hence my example and your confusion.


And before those individual releases, there was a single release that 
contained both.  See the package variants here (take note of the 
requirements sticker in the lower left corner): 
http://www.mobygames.com/game/kings-quest-v-absence-makes-the-heart-go-yonder/cover-art/gameCoverId,43069/
It's hard to see, with the watermark, but both sets of disks are 
enclosed as well.

Sierra was constantly reworking things, even their program releases.  I 
have seen three or more original disks of the same AGI or SCI game, all 
with different version numbers and slightly different interpreters (no 
discernible difference in the game itself though).


> To avoid further confusion lets use that Jones in the fast lane example:

>

> http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/jones-in-the-fast-lane/release-info


Okay, so MobyGames treated the two different Jones releases as two 
different platforms because one of them contained a native Windows 
version.  If you go to either version's main page, a link to the other 
is shown via a grouping "Jones in the Fast Lane versions"

Jones is a very old entry on MobyGames that might not be representative 
of the entire database.  Heart of China is a little better, showing all 
versions via covers 
(http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/heart-of-china/cover-art) as well as 
some (but not all) releases here: 
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/heart-of-china/release-info

MobyGames is 100% volunteer, so not all entries may be completely 
fleshed out with every single variant and detail.


> So maybe not the best example. Let us instead go with Fate

> of Atlantis which has a CD-ROM Version that's greatly enhanced.

>

> http://www.mobygames.com/game/indiana-jones-and-the-fate-of-atlantis/release-info

>

> Okay, it says "CD-ROM version has added speech" in the comments of one

> release. And again, a trivia entry. It does not feature the two

> different versions in any obvious way though. I'd somehow expect the

> summary page to point out these exist. And I'm sure you can't run any

> kind of database query to find all talkie cd-rom versions of all games

> or anything like that because it is just some text hidden in generic

> fields. That's all I'm saying.


I don't understand your Atlantis example because the CDROM version is 
clearly listed in the release info.  Maybe the problem is with our 
presentation, and not necessarily our schema?


> I don't know how on earth you got the impression I'm a pirate, part of


I specifically wrote "I'm not calling you a pirate" so I wasn't doing 
that.  I said that MobyGames was specifically created to catalog games 
from a publisher perspective primarily and a collector perspective 
secondarily.  I didn't feel at the time that a collector-centric 
database was the best way to catalog publisher releases, so that's why 
MobyGames is organized the way it is.


> Yes, your and other sites are great to

> look things up but they just lack when it comes to simple requests like

> "please give me a list of all NES games released in the UK".


Our philosophy from day one was quality over quantity.  We require a 
large set of basic information about a game before it is approved into 
the database.  This wards off the less dedicated, plus it's also why 
there's no import functionality, nor will there ever be.  I created 
MobyGames specifically as a response to "game lists" of the mid-to-late 
1990s that contained title/publisher/year and little else (which really 
bothered me, as I didn't feel that three pieces of info was useful 
information from a historical or research perspective).


> And if you want to be able to run a query like "all win 3.1"

> games you probably have to do it that way depending on your db design.


(http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,59/p,5/ for the 
record :-)  Anything in a tech spec can be clicked on.)


> I'd probably be ending up adding the CD-ROM version to my db twice, once

> as Win 3.1 release and once as DOS release. And add a special link to

> the database which lets you know they are sold in the same package.


You need to clarify what you mean by "release".  If they came in the 
same package, how can they be different releases?  Terminology is very 
important if you will interact with other systems (not just mine).

I was very lucky in that my friend Brian Hirt who co-created MobyGames 
with me used to write database-driven applications for a living, and he 
pointed out the importance of proper design and normalization.  What you 
just described sounded like you were going to add two different entries 
to your system for a single package -- I'm not sure that's the best way, 
but that's why I have my system and you have yours :-)  I'm just 
bringing it up as something to think about.  Once you get pretty deep, 
it can be very difficult to reorganize.


> Yeah, names alone tell you nothing. Actually, this would probably have

> been advertised as a conversion or port anyways. Some 8-bit conversions


My point was that the core gameplay is nothing at all like Tomb Raider, 
making it neither a port nor a conversion.  It's a completely different 
game, only with the Tomb Raider title, so it got its own entry in our 
system.


>> The Elite example illustrates why MobyGames needs more volunteers --

>> the original Elite was for the BBC Micro which, despite the many

>> platforms that *are* listed, isn't yet a supported platform in MobyGames.

>

> Can I ask you a question there? I've always wondered why that is. I have

> no idea how your database is designed but it seems weird to me that

> adding a platform requires any kind of serious work. Unless you have

> lots of platform-specific tables or fields which I can't imagine.


Our database is nearly 100% normalized; there are over 300 tables. 
Adding a platform is a lot more than adding a "BBC Micro" element to the 
platform table -- now we need BBC Micro-specific tech specs, etc.

The bigger issue in creating a platform is identifying someone who will 
be an approver for it.  Most of our approvers have firsthand experience 
with the platforms they approve entries for, for obvious reasons.  I've 
never touched a BBC Micro, so I'd have no business approving BBC Micro 
game entries because I have no context in which to judge if the entry 
was correct or a pile of BS.

It is easier to get "closed" systems into the database, like the Atari 
Lynx.  That system had a finite length with a known published set of 
games, so it's possible to be "100% complete" with it, and more likely 
to attract someone who considers themselves a subject expert to approve 
entries (or contribute them).


> Well, thanks again for taking the time to reply to what is basically a

> question by a "competitor". I appreciate and respect that a lot. If you

> have any questions about my project feel free to ask although I doubt

> you can have any seeing as nothing's public yet and there's no reason

> yet to assume I/we can build anything worthwile. I know that and can

> fully understand!


No "competitors", there's always room for more historical data :-)  I 
encourage you to make your ideas reality.  You can ask me anything, 
privately or publicly.

If I were to be the slightest way snarky or malicious, it would be 
because I know firsthand how incredibly difficult it is to get something 
like this off the ground ;-)  For every hour you spend implementing your 
system, you should spent 20 hours thinking about how to implement it so 
that you avoid issues down the road.

I'm not kidding about that 20:1 ratio.
-- 
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org)            http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project:           http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at     http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/