[game_preservation] Game Database question

[Jan Baart]

 >Considering I designed MobyGames to do exactly the opposite, I'm 
curious what you mean.  The main screens certainly try to summarize all 
platforms so that comparisons can be made at a glance, but the >specific 
information is under the hood and is accessible.  Are you talking about 
different platforms for the same game?  (For example, Jones in the Fast 
Lane has a DOS version as well as a Windows 3.x >version, and each are 
listed as a platform)  Or do you mean different releases of the same 
game?  If the latter, then different revisions of a game can be noted 
along with their version, date, and comments >(see 
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/kings-quest-v-absence-makes-the-heart-go-yonder/release-info 
for an example)

Hey Jim,

thanks for your reply. First let me say that this was in no way meant as 
a stab at mobygames. The actual database project isn't either. It's just 
that I (for various reasons that need not be discussed in public) felt 
the need to try a different approach. As we're all non-commercial 
efforts anyways I hope we can co-exist in a friendly way.

Now, about my question and your puzzlement. With version I was, in lack 
of a better term, speaking of the phenomenon I described with the 
examples. I was not talking about ports or regional variants. Never 
meant to imply you are mixing all those up at mobygames. Before I 
continue let me explain the King's Quest V example. Despite what you say 
there actually were separate EGA and VGA releases. I own both in their 
original boxed version, my VGA copy comes only on 5.25 disks, the EGA 
copy has 5.25 and 3.5 disks. Hence my example and your confusion. So I 
was in fact referring to the situation we have with a couple of Sierra 
games, just like the examples you chose.

To avoid further confusion lets use that Jones in the fast lane example:

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/jones-in-the-fast-lane/release-info

It does not mention the different versions on that page at all. In fact, 
the only references to them I could find were:

Trivia (not always shown on the summary page):
There's also a CD version with speech, and was released in both a DOS 
and DOS+Windows 3.1 versions.

/Editor's Note: There is also an EGA floppy version that is very hard to 
find.

/Admittedly, that's a pretty rare game, especially the EGA and CD 
versions. And as you said, the Win 3.1 version is in the same package as 
the DOS one. So maybe not the best example. Let us instead go with Fate 
of Atlantis which has a CD-ROM Version that's greatly enhanced.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/indiana-jones-and-the-fate-of-atlantis/release-info

Okay, it says "CD-ROM version has added speech" in the comments of one 
release. And again, a trivia entry. It does not feature the two 
different versions in any obvious way though. I'd somehow expect the 
summary page to point out these exist. And I'm sure you can't run any 
kind of database query to find all talkie cd-rom versions of all games 
or anything like that because it is just some text hidden in generic 
fields. That's all I'm saying.



> One of the problems I saw in the late 1990s was that game listings 

> were dominated more by pirate group releases and not actual proper 

> publisher releases.  As less and less people have access to the 

> original as years go by, this only gets worse.  Both of your examples 

> point to a pirate-centric view.  I'm not calling you a pirate, btw -- 

> *I* was certainly a raging pirate in the 1980s, I ran the first 

> abandonware site sent a cease and desist letter by the (then) IDSA, 

> and I still crack and release stuff I can get my hands on today that 

> doesn't seem to have made it into the wild.  But despite my love of 

> reverse-engineering and my desire to preserve history, categorizing 

> games based on what pirate groups distributed doesn't seem very sound.


I don't know how on earth you got the impression I'm a pirate, part of 
the abandonware scene or whatever. I can't see a single thing in my 
question that would hint to that. But no, I am not "a pirate". I own 
plenty of (as in, hundreds) CIB computer games along with over a 
thousand CIB console and handheld games. In fact, one of the main 
reasons to try a different database approach is the fact that none of 
the current ones cater very well to collectors, or rather, collectors 
that aren't limited to the pc. Yes, your and other sites are great to 
look things up but they just lack when it comes to simple requests like 
"please give me a list of all NES games released in the UK".

> I'll illustrate my beliefs with the most difficult example I can think 

> of:  Jones in the Fast Lane.  That game had two package releases:

>

>     - DOS, floppy, 3.5" and 5.25", EGA and VGA

>     - CDROM talkie edition with Windows 3.1 and DOS binaries

>

> I would call these two different platforms, with two "versions" per 

> platform.  That's not 100% accurate since the DOS and Windows CDROM 

> edition are in the same package, but it's close enough for the 

> purposes of our discussion.

This is indeed one of the nastiest cases. I'm not sure yet how I'd 
handle these, hence the question to see how people tend to interpret 
these "versions". As different games or not. If the Win 3.1 version had 
been sold seperately it'd be listed as a different port on most 
databases. And if you want to be able to run a query like "all win 3.1" 
games you probably have to do it that way depending on your db design. 
I'd probably be ending up adding the CD-ROM version to my db twice, once 
as Win 3.1 release and once as DOS release. And add a special link to 
the database which lets you know they are sold in the same package. 
Actually, this case isn't so special, it happened all the time with 
earlier Win 95 games.


>

> The bigger problem you pose is:  How different does a game have to get 

> on different platforms before it's not the same game?  When we built 

> MobyGames' platform support, we made sure to make things easily 

> comparable, because I find it historically fascinating to see how a 

> game was re-implemented on various platforms.  Take Elite as an 

> example, and poke through 

> http://www.mobygames.com/game/elite/screenshots for some interesting 

> comparisons.  It's interesting to see how it was altered for the 

> limitations of the platform it was destined for (apple II has 

> wireframe only, etc.) but it's obvious it's the same game.


Yes, this definitely shows. IMHO, the very best feature about mobygames 
is the screenshot comparison view that lets you easily view differences 
between ports.

>

> Now, take "Tomb Raider" for the Gameboy: 

> http://www.mobygames.com/game/gameboy-color/tomb-raider_/screenshots/gameShotId,256516/ 

>  Despite the common name and character art, it is clearly not a port 

> of the original; it is more inspired by it.  So it shouldn't be 

> included with the main, consolidated entry, and it isn't.


Yeah, names alone tell you nothing. Actually, this would probably have 
been advertised as a conversion or port anyways. Some 8-bit conversions 
are especially difficult as they are essentially new games modeled after 
the original as close as either possible or wanted. The line has to be 
drawn here on a case by case basis. I guess in almost every case you'd 
be able to intuitively make the right decision.

>

> The Elite example illustrates why MobyGames needs more volunteers -- 

> the original Elite was for the BBC Micro which, despite the many 

> platforms that *are* listed, isn't yet a supported platform in MobyGames.


Can I ask you a question there? I've always wondered why that is. I have 
no idea how your database is designed but it seems weird to me that 
adding a platform requires any kind of serious work. Unless you have 
lots of platform-specific tables or fields which I can't imagine.

Well, thanks again for taking the time to reply to what is basically a 
question by a "competitor". I appreciate and respect that a lot. If you 
have any questions about my project feel free to ask although I doubt 
you can have any seeing as nothing's public yet and there's no reason 
yet to assume I/we can build anything worthwile. I know that and can 
fully understand!

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