[game_preservation] Fwd: End of the arcade CRT monitor

[Martin Goldberg]

It's not just the brightness, it's the crispness of the lines. There's
of course no rasters, so there's no jaggedness. You might consider
investing in a Vectrex for the class to demonstrate that.

As for things like multicade, I completely agree. It's a constant
argument I've ad with younger generations who's only experience with
older arcade games are game roms and collections on modern console.
I.E. the commoditization of 'retro games.' Why do they need to play a
single game in a dedicated cabinet when they can simply play all the
games like that they want in an emulator. My answer is not much
different than why some people still prefer their LPs and their
packaging over cds and the like, the experience is much different. The
cabinet design and control scheme is just as much a part of the
experience as the game itself, and in many cases was meant to enhance
the experience. Battlezone is just not the same without stepping up to
those goggles. Pac-Man's cabinet is instantly recognizable to those in
our generation. Space Invaders in it's giant EM cabinet with overlays
on the screen is just not the same in an emulator. Then you have
completely unique cabinets and control schemes like Wacko, Kozmik
Krooz'r, and Tron.

What killed a lot of that uniqueness was the adoption of the JAMMA
standard in the second half of the 80's. When you have plug and play
cabinets and a standard 'joystick with rows of buttons' control
scheme, you're not really offering much for the experience over what
the home was moving towards. Which is why I don't completely blame the
younger generations for not getting it, they're in generations where
the coin-op industry's importance is all but gone now even the
platform is becoming less important (iOS, Android device over
consoles).

I take heart in getting these people to come to the Midwest Gaming
Cassic every year and walk away with wide eyes at the experience. We
have a living museum of about 300 coin-ops every year (think it was
over that this past year.) Video, pinball, and traditional EM. The
experience for them is far different than what they expected, even
just being in a more traditional arcade setting than what passes for
'arcdes' now.


On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:

> Vector is also not something that can be emulated. You can have the visuals,

> but you'll never get that same amount of brightness! I always tell this to

> my students: you have to see an actual Asteroids machine and play it to

> understand what is so important with vector graphics.

>

> With regards to the monitors, I was talking putting filters or something

> into the monitor so you're still running off the arcade machine (rather than

> MAME), but it looks close enough to a CRT to still work.

>

> I guess the real question here is not so much longevity of the original

> hardware (by recycling, making new, or 'faking') or emulation, but

> identifying what are the key components of the game/s in question and

> ensuring that these properties can be preserved.

>

> For instance, while we have a multicade machine in the office with about a

> hundred games on it, I can tell you that playing 1942 on the multicade is

> not the same as playing it on the actual hardware due to the placement of

> the joystick and the play on the joystick, not even counting how poor the

> monitor is on this machine. I think if we want to look at arcade

> preservation, just going by a little bit of experience, I think having

> players who are experts on the games describe what are the key properties of

> the games to a preservationist can help us determine what is important about

> a particular machine.

>

>

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>> We need to clarify the terminology here - you guys are talking more

>> about video monitors than CRTs in general. CRT != video, a CRT can be

>> either an XY or a raster (video) display, and both use very different

>> display technology. Scanlines and the artificating you're talking

>> about refers to raster/video displays.

>>

>> Scanlines, artifacting and the like are already simulated in emulators

>> like MAME and various computer and console emulators. Simulation those

>> effects are always decent but never the same as the real thing.

>>

>> And while video CRTs may eventually be scarce (they're nowhere near

>> that right now), XY or vector monitors are currently very scarce.

>>

>>

>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 3:11 PM, István Fábián <if at caps-project.org>

>> wrote:

>> > It is possible to simulate CRT artefacts with sufficiently powerful

>> > graphics

>> > cards, for an example see micro64, the c64 emulator.

>> >

>> > Sent from Samsung Mobile

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:

>> >

>> >

>> > Ok, so they are harvesting CRTs, which will work for some time, but is

>> > obviously not sustainable.

>> >

>> > Do you think this is something where we can modify an LCD monitor to

>> > "emulate" CRT display (basically look like a CRT monitor) or should this

>> > be

>> > something where instead we look at having blueprints/manufacturing

>> > information for the technology so a preservation/restoration group can

>> > produce new ones. Because what it sounds like is there won't be too many

>> > left in another 10 years.

>> >

>> > On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org>

>> > wrote:

>> >>

>> >> I visited again yesterday and had another opportunity to meet the owner

>> >> (especially after I broke the arcade's high score for Track and Field

>> >> ;-)

>> >> and he mentioned that he has very strong feelings about arcade repair

>> >> and

>> >> has been replacing LCDs with CRTs where he can find them, and has also

>> >> been

>> >> buying broken cabinets where the CRT is working but little else is,

>> >> just to

>> >> get the CRT.  He mentioned that sometimes existing CRTs can be repaired

>> >> due

>> >> to something simple, so some repair is attempted. Also, he makes a

>> >> decision

>> >> on how bad a CRT is before he scraps it -- some burn-in is allowed,

>> >> some

>> >> gamma shift is allowed.  So the basic answer to the question is

>> >> "harvesting".  He harvests CRTs whenever he can.  He feels very

>> >> strongly

>> >> that the machines were meant to be experienced with as much original

>> >> hardware as possible, something I wholeheartedly endorse.

>> >>

>> >> I asked him about how easy it was to retrofit traditional TV tubes into

>> >> arcade cabinets and he said that his experience with doing that was not

>> >> very

>> >> successful.  He only seeks out tubes that have been used in an arcade

>> >> setting.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> On 7/6/2012 4:14 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote:

>> >>>

>> >>> If it helps we (at the museum in the UK) need TV's for our old

>> >>> computers

>> >>> (authenticity as you are both saying!). We luckily have now got a TV

>> >>> repair man (or someone who knows enough), and luckily no need for

>> >>> buying

>> >>> in expensive parts for kit like arcade machines as such though, just

>> >>> portable and normal TV's right now.

>> >>>

>> >>> I'd say good luck to those guys fixing them, going to be harder and

>> >>> harder now :(

>> >>>

>> >>> Andrew

>> >>>

>> >>> On 06/07/2012 22:08, Jim Leonard wrote:

>> >>>>

>> >>>> On 7/3/2012 12:19 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> I'm going to Galloping Ghost Arcade tomorrow, and I'd be happy to

>> >>>>> ask

>> >>>>> and report back.  (They have over 300+ functioning coin-ops.)

>> >>>>

>> >>>>

>> >>>> Unfortunately the owners were not in so I was unable to gather any

>> >>>> significantly useful information.  The one person who was there

>> >>>> mentioned that they take broken CRTs to "a local repair guy" where

>> >>>> they are repaired, so I'm led to believe that they are repairing the

>> >>>> tubes as well as trying to find replacements at a local recycling

>> >>>> center.

>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>> _______________________________________________

>> >>> game_preservation mailing list

>> >>> game_preservation at igda.org

>> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> --

>> >> Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org)            http://www.oldskool.org/

>> >> Check out some trippy MindCandy at        http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

>> >> A child borne of the home computer wars:  http://trixter.oldskool.org/

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> _______________________________________________

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>> >> game_preservation at igda.org

>> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > --

>> > Devin Monnens

>> > www.deserthat.com

>> >

>> > The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

>> >

>> > _______________________________________________

>> > game_preservation mailing list

>> > game_preservation at igda.org

>> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>> --

>> Marty

>> _______________________________________________

>> game_preservation mailing list

>> game_preservation at igda.org

>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>

>

>

>

> --

> Devin Monnens

> www.deserthat.com

>

> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

>

> _______________________________________________

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> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>




-- 
Marty