[game_preservation] Internet Archive Starts Archiving Commercial PC Games?

[Alex Handy]

I understand the IP needs of the companies that own this stuff. My argument
is that, after a certain point, the original versions of these games are
important relics of our digital history, akin to a famous painting in the
National Gallery. The preservation of these things online, in an available
format, I feel is more important than protecting the IP rights of the
companies that made them. If anything, the original authors of those games
are the people we should be talking to. I understand that's not how things
work, but honestly, if this were a painting by Whistler, or Van Gogh, it'd
still belong to the original artist, and to the world, even if the original
is being saved somewhere inside a corporate board room.

For Web-based preservation, every game the IA has made playable is
basically an unplayable mess from the perspective of the modern gamer.
Castle Wolfenstein, as awesome of a game as it is, is impenetrable to a
modern gamer, and it has controls that perplex even experts. The value add
a company can layer on top of this would be simpler controls, a port to
Android with joystick support, maybe a remake of the original with better
graphics.

But the original? Preserving it in a playable form online does nothing but
educate people. It's not deterring anyone from buying an Android port. Look
at all the various forms of Pac-Man on the site. As cool as they were back
in the day, no one would see them as a substitute for that fancy new
Pac-Man on Playstation 3 and such.

These things being preserved are not monetizable assets in their raw form.
Atari can't make money from it's 2600 games without putting work into it:
making a physical console that plays the games, or by licensing them to be
ported onto the Xbox 360. The original, running in a browser, is purely an
educational offering.

I totally understand that preservation is not always about letting people
touch and see the things being preserved. But I think it should be. When it
comes to preserving digital assets: if you cannot look at them, use them,
run them, it's like taking a famous impressionist painting and locking it
away in the attic. Sure, it'll be there for future generations.... but at
what point do we draw the line and say "ok, it's future generations now."

I say, with as fast as digital assets move, and as easy as it is to make
this stuff accessible, the only reasonable excuses for not making it
playable and accessible is either a technical "can't be done" argument, or
a "we don't have the time to do it" arguement.

I think Jason is drawing a line in the sand and forcing these companies to
figure out what the heck their strategy for preserving this stuff is.
Remember, the guys who did Wallace and Grommit had their entire film
archive burn to the ground years ago, losing everything. That's can't
happen again. Just because Nintendo does a great job of historically
catologing and saving its own things, internally, until the public can see
that stuff, it's just a room full of things being horded for no good reason.


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com> wrote:


> Preservation in no way implies how people see and hear what's being

> preserved, and making it digitally available for download and/or live play

> on a website far surpasses those needs. Where on earth did you get the idea

> that no one would see the game if it wasn't thrown up on a website and

> freely distributed? The rights of digital distribution (which is what this

> entails) is entirely up to the copyright holder. Atari, Nintendo, Sega,

> Activision, etc. for instance still licenses these games out and many

> already have current initiatives regarding the purchasing of digitally

> distributed games that this directly conflicts with.

>

>

> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Alex Handy <alex at themade.org> wrote:

>

>> What's the point of preservation if no one can see, hear, or use what's

>> been preserved?

>> On Dec 16, 2013 12:00 PM, "Martin Goldberg" <wgungfu at gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>>> Certainly understandable, though them not getting back to you should be

>>> a clear indication of rights not granted. Either way, I would think there's

>>> a difference between preservation and offering them up on a website for

>>> download and play though.

>>>

>>>

>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Alex Handy <alex at themade.org> wrote:

>>>

>>>> Certainly, some are very easy to source. I've tried to get rights like

>>>> this for preservation purposes before, and it's a very, very difficult row

>>>> to hoe. Even knowing who owns the games, they won't return your calls...

>>>>

>>>> There is stuff out there that's vanishing, and i love Jason's save it

>>>> all attitude.

>>>> On Dec 16, 2013 11:18 AM, "Martin Goldberg" <wgungfu at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> That's certainly not the case with any of the Atari games and some of

>>>>> the other related companies. They're very easy to source.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Alex Handy <alex at themade.org> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> Problem is most of the stuff he's preserving is damn near impossible

>>>>>> to source ip rights on. 80's game companies have all been sold off a dozen

>>>>>> times, and the companies that still own those rights probably don't even

>>>>>> know they own them..

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Ip is a mess right now. I think Jason is doing the right thing.

>>>>>> Waiting for companies to give him permission would basically doom the

>>>>>> project to failure.

>>>>>> On Dec 16, 2013 9:30 AM, "Andrew Perti" <andrew.perti at thesimm.org>

>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I recently had a lengthy discussion with Jason about this. He's

>>>>>>> using what he calls the 'back door' method, rather than the legal and

>>>>>>> conventional 'front door.' A 'let's see what happens' approach.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Preservation, to me, does not necessarily include making something

>>>>>>> publicly available. This is especially true when you don't hold an original

>>>>>>> to reference from. I'd call it piracy with rose tinted sunglasses; at the

>>>>>>> core, mass proliferation of copywritten works (IP) for free. The intent was

>>>>>>> the same and Underground-Gamer.com was taken down this past year

>>>>>>> for gross proliferation.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> We'll see what spaghetti sticks to the ceiling and which falls.

>>>>>>> Though the JSMESS stack is impressive, I'm of the opinion that public

>>>>>>> domain ROMs, shareware, and other freeware may have been a better route to

>>>>>>> get the conversation going from the start.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> There isn't for the Atari related games, so your first assessment

>>>>>>>> is most likely right.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Benj Edwards <

>>>>>>>> editor at vintagecomputing.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> If I had to guess, I think Jason is uploading those commercial

>>>>>>>>> game CDs to force the issue (i.e. preserve them at all costs, regardless of

>>>>>>>>> legality), probably with the consideration that legal action against the

>>>>>>>>> Archive for those old games is unlikely.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Or maybe IA does have some agreement cooked up with those games'

>>>>>>>>> publishers.  But I seriously, seriously doubt it.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Benj

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/2013 3:36 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote:

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> I wonder who that is ;)

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Andrew

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> On 15/12/2013 19:14, Jim Leonard wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/8/2013 1:03 AM, Mike Melanson wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> All of these seem to have a release date of today (December 7).

>>>>>>>>>>>> So maybe

>>>>>>>>>>>> they're planning a big announcement.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> A sampling of metadata for that collection shows "<uploader>

>>>>>>>>>>> jscott at archive.org</uploader>", so I would imagine you can

>>>>>>>>>>> contact that address for more details.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________

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>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> --

>>>>>>>>> Freelance Writer / Editor in Chief VC&G

>>>>>>>>> http://www.benjedwards.com

>>>>>>>>> http://www.vintagecomputing.com

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> --

>>>>>>>> Marty

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> ------------------------------

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> --

>>>>>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

>>>>>>> _______________________________________________

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>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> --

>>>>> Marty

>>>>>

>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> --

>>> Marty

>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> game_preservation mailing list

>>> game_preservation at igda.org

>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>

>>>

>> _______________________________________________

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>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>

>>

>

>

> --

> Marty

>

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>

>



-- 
Alex Handy
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