[game_preservation] Watermarks and Studio Communication

[Andrew Armstrong]

This is another excellent point Simon (apart from a great website I'll 
add to the project resources list), and something we perhaps should look 
at. Do we have any available resources (besides the IGDA's own 
webservers, of which I don't know the capacity in bandwidth or disk 
space, and something I will look into) that can take on the task of 
having a backups/copies of items?

Archive.org doesn't seem to have anything for this kind of work, perhaps 
some of the University-based guys on the list can offer some help in 
this regard? Or anyone who has the spare time to accept file uploads?

It'd certainly be good to have a capacity so we can contact people 
offering them a mirror or even just a "private" backup! (and perhaps so 
later the information can be properly categorised and be made useful). 
Since there isn't many people to work on a general site for it, storing 
the files would be a good compromise for now. While "disk space is 
cheap" I don't have the money myself (at the moment that is) to take too 
much media on my own hands and store it reliably, sigh.

Andrew

Simon Carless wrote:

> Incidentally, these folks are doing an awesome job of archiving arcade 

> flyers, we should make sure someone has a spare copy:

>

> http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=home

>

> s!

>

> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Andrew Armstrong 

> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:

>

>     I'll note this down to consider in the future. Certainly, the

>     meta-industry (or what is the right word?) regarding

>     non-development or publishing companies will be important to

>     record the histories of, and watermarking and logos are definitely

>     an important part of that. Hopefully fair and educational use of

>     such watermarks and logos will suffice as a reason not to sue if

>     any effort was made to document the companies!

>

>     (I also agree, it's good that such images exist even if not

>     pristine, just so there is a copy - although there'd be no need to

>     store all of them, a sample would do, and this story certainly

>     would be an interesting one to note as an example of how it can

>     look bad).

>

>     Andrew

>

>     Captain Commando wrote:

>>     Henry,

>>

>>     Yeah, a watermark is certainly not the original - but it can

>>     sometimes do if it's the only copy available (and if it's famous

>>     enough, people will search high and low and everywhere in-between

>>     for the original). I've been doing something similar with MP3s -

>>     I get multiple MP3s of essentially the same song, but with

>>     different ID3 tags or filenames. These are made and distributed

>>     by the people who make them as opposed to say different tags of a

>>     CD. I decided to back up a copy of the multiples before deleting

>>     them as you never know if it will be important later. And space

>>     is cheap.

>>

>>     Watermarking will certainly be an important part of digital

>>     culture and would be important to a future paper (or present,

>>     paper, really) on ownership in the Network Age. Who knows how

>>     images will be distributed 30 years from now, but I doubt they'll

>>     be marked in the same way.

>>

>>     -DM

>>

>>     On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Henry Lowood

>>     <lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>> wrote:

>>

>>         <wrote this morning but forgot to send until now>

>>

>>         Devin,

>>

>>         Preservation itself, in a way, is neutral with regard to

>>         digital watermarking.   By that I mean that the technology

>>         and practice of watermarking itself should be preserved, as

>>         being likely to be of historical and technical interest.  

>>         So, we should expect to collect watermarked images.  That

>>         said, I do not think we can consider these as pristine

>>         images, but rather as documenting the practice of

>>         watermarking.  It would be rather like considering a cracked

>>         copy of a game, with a cracktro as being a preserved copy of

>>         the original game; surely, cracked copies of this sort are

>>         worth preserving, but they are not valid copies of the

>>         original game.   (I don't mean to compare cracking and

>>         watermarking, by the way, other than to point out that they

>>         are modified copies.)

>>

>>         My inclination would be to build collections of original data

>>         (software, images, etc.) and Creative Commons seems like a

>>         good way to handle access (but there are difficulties with

>>         applying it retroactively without permission).   We are going

>>         to wrestle with documenting authenticity in the LC project,

>>         and I think that's also a good topic for the White Paper.

>>         Then perhaps separately build separate collections around

>>         topics such as watermarking, cracking, and other means of

>>         duplication.   In some cases, of course, a copy in the latter

>>         sort of collection may end up being the only copy to survive.

>>

>>         Henry

>>

>>

>>         At 09:37 AM 4/21/2008, Captain Commando wrote:

>>>         I have started to realize that watermarking is really a bad

>>>         idea. Sure, it tells you where the image came from without

>>>         having to check the metadata, but all it does is ruin an

>>>         otherwise nice image. For this reason, I am starting to turn

>>>         to the idea of uploading future high-res images to the

>>>         Metroid Database without watermarks and possibly eventually

>>>         converting some older images over and using Creative Commons

>>>         when possible. I'm not sure if this is something we should

>>>         be worried about (watermarking) but I know I'd prefer to

>>>         have images without it in my own collection. Goodness knows

>>>         we already get more hits than any other fan site out there

>>>         anyway.

>>>

>>>         -DM

>>>

>>>         On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Simon Carless

>>>         <simon at archive.org <mailto:simon at archive.org>> wrote:

>>

>>             In more recent history, GamesPress:

>>

>>             http://www.gamespress.co.uk/

>>

>>             ...is an excellent source for unwatermarked assets. I

>>             believe you need to pay a minor amount for full asset

>>             access, though. And you have to be a journo to use it at all.

>>

>>             s!

>>

>>

>>             On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 9:13 AM, Andrew Armstrong

>>             <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:

>>

>>                 Oh, I noticed this on some random news feed. It is

>>                 utterly ridiculous (and funny no doubt), but of

>>                 course this might just be an indicator that someone

>>                 at Capcom's American office doesn't know how to

>>                 contact the Japan office! (bloody interns ;-) )

>>

>>                 As for high quality unmarked copies (like, in PNG

>>                 format not JPEG), it's a real issue. There isn't any

>>                 good unwatermarked source for most of these marketing

>>                 items a few years after release (this also can

>>                 include preview screenshots, artwork, etc.). I'll be

>>                 looking to source some for the Digital Game Canon

>>                 website and the entries on there as a prototype to

>>                 see if it's feasible for the IGDA to store them, or

>>                 if there is any way to get them in the first place

>>                 (perhaps the IGDA can get some contacts going to be

>>                 sent marketing materials the same as press websites

>>                 do and the preservation SIG can sort them).

>>

>>                 I'm sure some marketing departments keep tons of

>>                 archives of this kind of stuff, I just wish I knew

>>                 how we could get at it! :-) IGN etc. are "okay" for

>>                 some research, but the fact is, it's unworkable for

>>                 anyone doing proper historical research or trying to

>>                 reuse the images in any way, since copyright

>>                 (somehow) gets in the way...funnily, IGN "watermarks"

>>                 to protect their copyright, despite the images not

>>                 being theirs in the first place.

>>

>>                 Certainly the images would be better released under

>>                 some less restrictive copyright (creative commons or

>>                 somesuch), but permission is always a hassle,

>>                 although I doubt anyone could sue for use of the

>>                 original unmarked images anyway (marked ones at the

>>                 very least, stupidly, might infringe trademark laws

>>                 since IGN etc. plaster them with their logos).

>>

>>                 Some sites don't watermark or downscale (or JPEG

>>                 images, urg...) though, although I've not made a list.

>>

>>                 Definitely a good whitepaper point at least!

>>

>>                 Andrew

>>

>>                 Captain Commando wrote:

>>>                     I recently blogged about the debacle of Capcom

>>>                     using an image watermarked by IGN for the US

>>>                     Okami Wii box art. I think this is something the

>>>                     IGDA Preservation SIG should be concerned with

>>>                     as it seems to me if you're organized and have

>>>                     good communication between studios, you're also

>>>                     able to preserve stuff better (and perhaps get a

>>>                     better product?).

>>>

>>>                     http://deserthat.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/ign-watermarks-and-lack-of-studio-intercommunication/

>>>

>>>

>>>                     Another point to add to the White Paper?

>>>

>>>                     -DM

>>>

>>>                     -- 

>>>                     The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

>>>

>>>                     "Until next time..."

>>>                     Captain Commando

>>>

>>>                         _______________________________________________

>>>

>>>                         game_preservation mailing list

>>>

>>>

>>>                         game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>                         http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>>

>>>                          

>>

>>                 _______________________________________________

>>                 game_preservation mailing list

>>                 game_preservation at igda.org

>>                 <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>

>>                 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>

>>

>>

>>             _______________________________________________

>>             game_preservation mailing list

>>             game_preservation at igda.org

>>             <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>

>>             http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>         -- 

>>         The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

>>

>>         "Until next time..."

>>         Captain Commando

>>         _______________________________________________

>>         game_preservation mailing list

>>         game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>

>>         http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>

>>         Henry Lowood, Ph.D.

>>         Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;

>>          Film & Media Collections

>>         HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall

>>         Stanford University Libraries

>>         Stanford CA 94305-6004

>>         650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu

>>         <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood

>>         <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>

>>

>>

>>         _______________________________________________

>>         game_preservation mailing list

>>         game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>

>>         http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>     -- 

>>     The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

>>

>>     "Until next time..."

>>     Captain Commando

>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>     _______________________________________________ game_preservation

>>     mailing list game_preservation at igda.org

>>     <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>

>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>

>     _______________________________________________

>     game_preservation mailing list

>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>

>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> _______________________________________________

> game_preservation mailing list

> game_preservation at igda.org

> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

>   

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20080422/4a38df09/attachment.htm>