[om-list] Re: Spiritual Action

[Mark Butler]

Tom,

  I do not believe that all things are collections of qualities.  The
proper definition of a quality is an attribute or property of a thing,
not the thing itself.  This is validated by all the relevant definitions
in the Oxford English Dictionary.

But again, there is no necessary reason to believe that a particle has
ever changed into a wave or vice versa through a process of
observation.   The quantum mechanical concept of observation has no
physical definition whatsoever.

Nonetheless, no significant real quality has ever been brought into or
out of existence without taking material action, either physical or
spiritual.

As far as miracles are concerned, you are confusing perception and
evaluation with actions spiritually performed.  Of course it is possible
for the mind to direct such occurrences - it is an inevitable
consequence of the that fact that spirit is matter and is closely
coupled with regular matter.  However, I would classify all such events
as actions requiring conscious intent and as much, if not more energy to
achieve as would be required to accomplish the same end through ordinary
physical processes.

Neither the world nor the loaves and fishes were created out of nothing.
Nor were they created by observing that they existed or by deciding that
they existed. Somewhere in each process real matter was organized, real
work was performed, and real energy was consumed.

To be more precise, the semantics of internal mental processes have no
affect on the reality of any external object except through material
actions subsequently taken or through the side effects of any
thermodynamic noise inherent to the process itself.  Is that acceptable?

- Mark


Tom and other Packers wrote:
> 
> Mark
> 
>     The thing is, aren't all thing just collections of qualities?  And if
> you can bring one quality into existence by simple observation (e.g. the
> quality of being a wave or a particle), why can you not bring the complete
> set of qualities into existence?
> 
>     And what of all those examples in The Holographic Universe, e.g.
> stigmatists apparently bringing wounds and whole nails into existence.  The
> question would then be, did those events actually happen?  And why could
> they not?  Are they physically impossible?  Not if you believe in the
> miracles of the New Testament.  I guess I need go no further than the New
> Testament, if Michael Talbot is in any danger of being doubted.  Where did
> the fish and the loaves come from?  Where did the whole physical world come
> from, but from someone's thoughts and conscious attention?
> 
>     No, I don't think we change the nature of the universe with
> observations.  But I do believe that we have the power to change physical
> things, and certainly cause the creation of abstract qualities, such as
> health and happiness, by faith, if not create whole objects.
> 
> tomp
>